"Women against feminism" WTF?!!

oh yes definitely!

Well, and we need variation on LTB.

I find it sad that quite a lot of women post saying they've had a date with a man, and he seems nice but for [insert trivial reason here] they just don't really want to go any further, and is that ok? We need to be better at saying hell yes, of course it's ok! Because at that early stage, it really shouldn't matter. You shouldn't feel guilty that you happened not to find Perfectly Nice Guy's sense of humour that funny, or that the way he cracks his knuckles bugs you.

i think LTB should be on the table more often than it is. because frankly "working on the relationship" and "compromising" often just means a woman subsuming her own needs and bending over backwards to please a man who isn't prepared to reciprocate

Flora I believe the poster your interesting post was answering doesn't believe in a working class, she believes she is an underclass and that none of us know anything about that.

Sounds familiar to me.

YY. It is really only on MN that I've come across large groups of women agreeing that leaving a marriage could be entirely positive. I mean, I know people who wouldn't (thank goodness) have to think for a split second about supporting a friend or daughter to leave abusive marriage - but you need more than that, I think. You need a context where people are actively cheering on women to feel they're worth so much more than that.

I know darkest but it used to happen almost all the time. My Mum co-founded our local WA and was profoundly shocked by the pressure put on women by their families to stay in an abusive marriage. For a while, we were the only family I knew whose parents had split up. My Mum's friends and family couldn't understand why she would leave a man who hadn't even beat her up.

Because god forbid you were a single mother with strength enough to chuck your loser husband out.

and their own mothers often told then to go back to their abusive husbands and put up with it

This still happens in a lot of cases.

That sounds brilliant Moomin

Yes LRD, I agree. Not that I paint my nails because I'd need to put my glasses on and quite frankly I'm so bad at it, it wouldn't be worth it. Recognising the choice fir what it is half the battle. Plus if we challenged every single aspect of gender stereotypes and misogyny we'd be exhausted! I think whingeing helps recharge the batteries in that respect too!

I agree, scallops, and that's one of the main reasons I consider myself feminist - girls being dressed in 'boys' clothing is fine, but if a boy dresses in pink or dresses, he's called 'girly' - like it's a bad thing (like it's even a thing, no such thing as conforming to gender stereotypes in this house )

Anyone who thinks feminism has done nothing for working class women isn't working class. I can remember when single mothers did not get housing benefit and fathers only contributed financially if they wanted to. Single mothers could expect men to bang on their doors on the way home from the pub to see if they were up for it. There was nowhere for battered women to escape to and their own mothers often told then to go back to their abusive husbands and put up with it. Society did not just change on its own, feminists and left wingers changed it.

Class oppression has been largely swept under the carpet though and it's getting worse. Absence of class analysis from politics and a focus on individual rights and choices has done no favours for women or other oppressed groups. I don't believe feminism is about choice because choice is highly loaded and almost always constrained, whether by societal expectations or lack of other choices. I prefer to think that feminism and left wing politics generally should be about liberation, not choice. Choice is fetishised in our society as it casts an appearance of fairness over any inequality without any examination of the structural issues that constrain choice. The same applies to the concept of meritocracy - that we can all choose / work / educate ourselves out of poverty. Although I have educated and worked myself out of poverty, it's clear to me that most or many people cannot.

Ahh I get you now Hakluyt

I think it's a lot easier to dress girls in boys clothing or non pink than the other way round, Moomin. Feminism explores why that is more than often the case.

I do think we can beat ourselves up too much about choices, though. I'm having a tiring day, and in a bit I'm going to have a bath and then sit painting my nails red while I watch the West Wing.

I am perfectly well aware that painting my nails red is not a feminist choice. Sure, I'm very glad I don't live in a society where some male relative would call me a whore for wearing makeup, or whatever, but I generally don't think about it much. And I know perfectly well that painting my nails red will cheer me up in large part because I've spent nearly three decades seeing lovely, glamorous adverts about women with shiny red nails and I think they look pretty. It's conditioning.

But as a choice it is tiny and it really, really, really does not matter very much. I am not going to feel guilty or a bad feminist for doing it.

Words can be powerful though - the Mumsnet We Believe You campaign for one.

"But why should my choices be feminist? What makes a feminist choice? Dressing my daughter in trousers, even though the weather makes it impractical?"

No of course not A feminist choice is one that doesn't contribute to making things worse for other women. So, a woman could choose to be a "surrendered wife" for example, but the role model she would be giving her children and the image of women she would be giving to other people would not be in the best interests of other women and would perpetuate stereotyping myths. So it would be a choice made by a woman, but not a feminist one. And the "feminist choice" about your dd's clothes would be to encourage her to wear clothes that are appropriate for whatever she's doing, and which make it possible for her to fling herself wholeheartedly into whatever it is she's doing. And not say, as my dd said to me when she was 7 "I love doing judo, but I don't want to do it any more because it makes me look sweaty and ugly"

Yep - it's rare that DD does wear dresses, her legs get chilly so she's usually in trousers or leggings. My brother was born in November so IIRC he spent most of his first six months in cable-knit leggings but if it was hot enough that we'd have put DD in a dress, it'd be hot enough for us to put a hypothetical DS in a dress.

Conscious-raising and sharing has always been massively important in feminism. It has helped join the dots and recognise patterns even if it's on an individual level. So 'whingeing' does serve a purpose.

Yes, it really is!

Having a good comeback is massively empowering in my eyes. I actively think of them when walking down the street when I see someone I just know is going to say something.

but I have to say I think bemoaning on line has its purpose too. I'm a massive whinger. I eventually get my finger out and do things, but I am wordy and I feel better to talk things out first

Oh you're not alone there as I'm sure you'll find out as I post more...

Your last point is spot on. I see people talking about feminism, using all these fancy terms and talking about sociological influences and dismantling the oppressive patriarchy etc etc, and I feel like asking: but are you doing anything about it?

Happy to be a feminist bookend.

See, I think the Everyday Sexism book is good in this respect.

Sure, lots of it is about women sharing experiences.

But then it also has actual things you can say in response. You can read them book and store up all the comebacks, and then you have the headspace free never to worry about what to say in that situation again.

Sure, it's not getting rid of FGM or eradicating rape, but in a quiet way, it's very useful.

Ahh x-post. If you had a son then you'd dress him the same way you'd dress your DD?

Oh, I see what you mean, too.

I agree it would be good if more women did make the choice to stand up to it, but I have to say I think bemoaning on line has its purpose too. I'm a massive whinger. I eventually get my finger out and do things, but I am wordy and I feel better to talk things out first.

I do think there's a point at which talking becomes an end in itself, and that's not so good. I think that's a problem with parts of the third wave, that people get very keen on using fancy terms and 'deconstructing' their experiences without perhaps thinking about practical results.