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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Right you pesky feminists, which sort of rape is *worse* <Dawkins related>

216 replies

ladyblablah · 29/07/2014 19:55

So Dawkins (self proclaimed ironic prophet) has decided that date rape is not as bad as a rape with a knife at your throat.

I have a question - what if the date rape includes a knife at the throat - what then - who wins at being the worst?

Is there a rule that date rape doesn't include knives? Do us feminists not know this rule for rapists?

OP posts:
cailindana · 30/07/2014 19:34

If a man were literally seconds away from orgasm, his wife said stop and he physically wasn't able to stop, no one would accuse him of rape - it was just bad timing.
However, in your example you said a man could get "carried away" while on the verge of having sex. That is total and utter bullshit. Under no circumstances is it ever acceptable for a man on the verge of having sex to continue to put his penis into a woman after she has asked him to stop. If he genuinely cannot control his own bodily movements once he is turned on then he is a serious danger and should be permanently locked up.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:31

I mean this tells us all we need to know about you:

"So, husband withdraws 10 seconds after his wife tells him to, on her developing a migraine."

Yes because women often "tell" their husbands to stop having sex with them halfway through and give no reason and then report them for rape because they take 10 seconds to take it out Hmm

Similarly women often develop migraines instantaneously during sex and when their husband takes 10 seconds to take it out on being told to do so, consider themselves to have been raped.

Yes because obviously women don't actually enjoy sex, are totally unreasonable, and use any opportunity to report any man they are intimate with for rape, presumably because they are all vindictive and a bit mad.

Nice posts.

IdealistAndProudOfIt · 30/07/2014 19:31

What point was he using i to illustrate? I don't want to go look and bung up his viewing figures after this....Logic and reason suggest to me that it is bad taste to use rape as an example in discussion for anything lighter than actual rape. Particularly for men I have to say, given the huge gender-skew towards female sufferers.

Torture, assuming you survive it, might be slightly better than being murdered - no doubt there are some traumatized victims who would disagree - but you don't come across that used as an example very often. Just rape. How odd.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 19:27

"I'm guessing that the percentage of women murdered after rape would go up a lot if that law were passed"

Christ, I missed that gem.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 19:26

Whether or not the woman files a complaint of rape is very much the point. How could it not be?

Assuming that she did, ethelb posted the sentencing guidelines upthread - clearly your "husband" example would not be a sustained attack or involve abduction or detention; your 6ft5 man in bushes would involve the former and probably the latter as aggravating factors, which would impact the guide sentence. I'm fine with that.

I took issue in the first instance with your "carried away" - as, given your "I know, I know" in that post, you expected would happen.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:23

You have a horrible view of men, theherbofdeath.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 19:20

ABland - that's not the point and you know it. Why not answer the question?
Lonny - a mandatory life sentence for every rape? Really? I'm guessing that the percentage of women murdered after rape would go up a lot if that law were passed.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:12

Good point Lonny.

SevenZarkSeven · 30/07/2014 19:12

Wife developing a migraine? Really? That's a standard 1970s joke isn't it Confused

Weird.

Anyway.

Dawkins is a total wanker. He does not understand the law. He obviously hasn't bothered to find out what the law is. He assumes that his assumptions as to what the law says are right, when they are not, and takes it from there. Thus talking a lot of bollocks.

In his "explanation" he has also now managed to give equivalence to male circumcision and FGM.

So the answer is that he is a bog-standard example of male entitlement, with absolutely zero understanding or interest in the fact that there are valid points of view other than his, and also a total lack of awareness that he is actually basing his arguments on an incorrect and incomplete understanding of the law, because there is no room in his existence for the possibility that someone else might know more about something than him. Like, people who have actually experienced it.

What an absolute wanker, seriously.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 30/07/2014 19:07

It's funny, but in his article he seems to think that courts imposing a single mandatory [life] sentence for all rapes would be some sort of bad/logically fallacy thing. I think it would be a fantastic step forward, actually. First sensible thing he's said on the subject.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 18:58

I see you've moved back from your "rape-plus" scenario.

I consider it extremely unlikely that the woman in the headache case would file a complaint of rape. Don't you?

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 18:49

I don't agree with that, ABland.
How many years do you think a man should get for, shall we call it "pure rape", or "rape only"?
So, husband withdraws 10 seconds after his wife tells him to, on her developing a migraine. That is rape, is it not? Should that get the same punishment as the 6ft 5 man you bump into in the park after dark, who tells you to go into the bushes and then rapes you. You obey him because he is a lot bigger than you and you are scared. Also pure rape, no? Should they therefore get the same punishment?

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 18:46

It's like mugging a without infliction of injury and a mugging where the victim is also punched in the face: the former criminal will be tried for theft, the latter for theft AND assault.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 18:41

"stalking a victim, dragging her into the bushes at knife-point, tearing off her clothing and raping her with such force that she suffers internal injury."

That is rape plus other crimes; I thought that was clarified upthread.

PetulaGordino · 30/07/2014 18:41

he does not realise that his rejection of "taboo zones" for "rationalists" comes from a position of enormous privilege. he can hypothesise and pontificate and rationalise because he's just playing with words and concepts

but these are real things that happen to real people, and crucially, are perpetrated by real people who will listen to someone like richard dawkins (male, white, educated) and will use it to justify their own behaviour. so it is neither here nor there whether he says "I didn’t care whether we chose to say date rape was worse than dark alley stranger rape, or vice versa" - this matters enormously to sectors of his audience out there, who either aren't aware of his logic games or will use them for their own ends regardless of RD's intentions

his unconscious privilege is a dangerous thing

DoctorTwo · 30/07/2014 18:40

Dawkins is not fit to lace Hitch's drinks.

PetulaGordino · 30/07/2014 18:36

i've read it through errol. here is where he explains why he chose rape and paedophilia analogies:

"Yes, I could have used the broken nose example. I accept that I must explain why I chose to use the particular example of rape. I was emphatically not trying to hurt rape victims or trivialise their awful experience. They get enough of that already from the “She was wearing a short skirt, I bet she was really begging for it Hur Hur Hur” brigade. So why did I choose rape as my unpleasant hypothetical (in both directions) rather than the “breaking someone’s nose” example? Here’s why.

I hope I have said enough above to justify my belief that rationalists like us should be free to follow moral philosophic questions without emotion swooping in to cut off all discussion, however hypothetical. I’ve listed cannibalism, trapped miners, transplant donors, aborted poets, circumcision, Israel and Palestine, all examples of no-go zones, taboo areas where reason may fear to tread because emotion is king. Broken noses are not in that taboo zone. Rape is. So is pedophilia. They should not be, in my opinion. Nor should anything else.

I didn’t know quite how deeply those two sensitive issues had infiltrated the taboo zone. I know now, with a vengeance. I really do care passionately about reason and logic. I think dispassionate logic and reason should not be banned from entering into discussion of cannibalism or trapped miners. And I was distressed to see that rape and pedophilia were also becoming taboo zones; no-go areas, off limits to reason and logic.

“Rape is rape is rape.” You cannot discuss whether one kind of rape (say by a ‘friend”) is worse than another kind of rape (say by a stranger). Rape is rape and you are not allowed even to contemplate the question of whether some rape is bad but other rape is worse. I don’t want to listen to this horrible discussion. The very idea of classifying some rapes as worse than others, whether it’s date rape or stranger rape, is unconscionable, unbearable, intolerable, beyond the pale, taboo. There is no allowable distinction between one kind of rape and another.

If that were really right, judges shouldn’t be allowed to impose harsher sentences for some rapes than for others. Do we really want our courts to impose a single mandatory sentence – a life sentence, perhaps – for all rapes regardless? To all rapes, from getting a woman drunk and taking advantage at one end of the spectrum, to holding a knife to her throat in a dark alley at the other? Do we really want our judges to ignore such distinctions when they pass sentence? I don’t, and I don’t think any reasonable person would if they thought it through. And yet that would seem to be the message of the agonisingly passionate tweets that I have been reading. The message seems to be, no, there is no spectrum, you are wicked, evil, a monster, to even ask whether there might be a spectrum.

I don’t think rationalists and sceptics should have taboo zones into which our reason, our logic, must not trespass. Hypothetical cannibalism of human road kills should be up for discussion (and rejection in my opinion – but let’s discuss it). Same for eugenics. Same for circumcision and FGM. And the question of whether there is a spectrum of rapes, from bad to worse to very very much worse, should also be up for discussion, no less than the spectrum from a slap in the face to a broken nose.

There would have been no point in my using the broken nose example to illustrate my logic, because nobody would ever accuse us of endorsing face-slapping when we say, “Broken nose is worse than slap in face”. The point is trivially obvious, as it is with the symbolic case of “X is worse than Y”. But I knew that not everybody would think it obvious in the special cases of rape and pedophilia, and that was precisely why I raised them for discussion. I didn’t care whether we chose to say date rape was worse than dark alley stranger rape, or vice versa. Nor was I unaware that it is a sensitive issue, as is pedophilia. I deliberately wanted to challenge the taboo against rational discussion of sensitive issues.

That, then, is why I chose rape and pedophilia for my hypothetical examples. I think rationalists should be free to discuss spectrums of nastiness, even if only to reject them. I had noticed indications that rape and pedophilia had moved out of the discussion zone into a no-go taboo area. I wanted to challenge the taboo, just as I want to challenge all taboos against free discussion.

Nothing should be off limits to discussion. No, let me amend that. If you think some things should be off limits, let’s sit down together and discuss that proposition itself. Let’s not just insult each other and cut off all discussion because we rationalists have somehow wandered into a land where emotion is king."

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 18:33

I just don't think that you will be able to get men to believe that not stopping mid-thrust when told to do so by your girlfriend is as bad as going out, stalking a victim, dragging her into the bushes at knife-point, tearing off her clothing and raping her with such force that she suffers internal injury. Good luck with that one.

ABlandAndDeadlyCourtesy · 30/07/2014 18:20

"carried away in the heat of the moment"

If his mother walked into the room, do you think he'd be able to stop? Mid thrust if necessary?

There is no such thing as being so carried away that the absence or withdrawal of consent can be overridden.

ErrolTheDragon · 30/07/2014 18:17

Oh dear. I don't believe there should be issues which are taboo and cannot be discussed philosophically (even by men) but I am pretty darned sure that if you're going to do it, you should not use Twitter.

richarddawkins.net/2014/07/are-there-emotional-no-go-areas-where-logic-dare-not-show-its-face/

I doubt many people CBA to read all that though.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 30/07/2014 18:09

I don't think Dawkins is particularly good at logic.

If he genuinely based all his beliefs on pure logic he'd be agnostic.

Which is a shame because lots of people will read this and cement the idea that there are levels of rape and some are 'mild'.

JustTheRightBullets · 30/07/2014 17:49

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Theherbofdeath · 30/07/2014 17:34

I admit I don't know much about the law on this, but I find a man who is in a loving sexual relationship with the woman and gets "carried away in the heat of the moment" - I know, I know - while already having or on the verge of having sex, more defensible than someone who attacks a woman he is not in a sexual relationship with. I think that the latter is worse and should be punished a lot more harshly. So I understand men who differentiate between these kinds of offences. I would not say that these are exactly the same offence but that offence 2 also includes common assault or whatever so he will be charged for common assault too. That would result in the 2 offences receiving virtually the same punishment, which would be unjust.

cailindana · 30/07/2014 17:05

Tortoise, his comment wasn't about punishment, it was about which was "worse." He didn't define what "worse" meant, though one could imagine he meant in terms of the effect for the victim. Who is he to say what's worse? Who is any of us to judge the devastation that the victim "should" feel?

In terms of the law, rape covers the putting of a penis into an orifice without consent. The circumstances around that are separate but are also taken into account. They have no bearing on the rape though.

dashoflime · 30/07/2014 16:55

I think he was sexually abused as a child and this whole discourse stems from an attempt on his part to minimise that (possibly for understandable reasons)
Its not logical though- and its not philosophy.
Sad for little Dawkins