Right you pesky feminists, which sort of rape is *worse* <Dawkins related>

You're just being silly now, Seven. If you're proposing bringing in life imprisonment for a crime, you have to be prepared to contemplate such a crime.

Signing off now as on computer way too long.

You seem to see an inevitability that men go around raping people. That it is entirely likely that any given son will rape someone in his life.

Again with the really grim view of men.

Not all men are rapists, you know. The men who think like that, well I think we all know why. They assume that all other men think as they do. But they don't. Loads of men wouldn't dream of fucking a woman who they know is not consenting. Thank god they aren't all like some paint them to be.

He is not remotely 'logical'

Being an arsehole does not explain his 'logic'

He should have died out with the Dodo's given his logic.

What is so terrible about it is that most women don't report rape. You have stated that some women don't, thus underplaying the problem.

Your posts throughout this thread have been really off, frankly, and now you are asking me to sit here in my home imagining being raped and/or murdered?

Really nice.

I think that there are degress of badness. Some rapists I would happily see get life imprisonment. But not all. I suspect that you will also start to see degress of badness if your son ever commits the kind of crime that Cooroo has described.

You just don't think rape is really that bad do you, theherb.

You are in the happy position of having most of society, the police and the legal system sharing your views.

Seven - you've lost me now - what's so terrible about saying that some women don't report rape? Should I have said that many women don't report rape? Why don't you just give us the figures, if you know them and we don't?

NB what would you rather have happen to you - the rape that Cooroo describes, or being murdered? You seriously believe that they deserve the same punishment?

I have read what she's written.

And responded accordingly.

Sevem - you could read what Cooroo has written. She is the victim of that crime. She doesn't come across as thinking that the just outcome would have been that young man spending his entire life in prison.

Oh look even more:

"At the moment men know that they are very likely to get away with it. Women know that too, and some therefore don't report."

Some. SOME.

Yes your posts are very very telling.

Cooroo read the thread.

In what cases in our existing legal system would it be "hugely unjust" for a man found guilty of rape to be given life imprisonment, theherbofdeath?

But many people seem to be denying such a difference exists. I think all rape is wrong however it occurs and men should be told this from an early age. But there are differences.

The other thing is Cooroo that some women who went through what you went through would be tremendously traumatised.

I just don't think it's that useful to compare experiences in this way.

You suggest that we take your reaction as the "standard" for that situation. Why not a woman who was much more traumatised? Are women supposed to brush these things off and they are lacking if they don't? A person's history, upbringing, personality, loads of things come into play, there is no "right" or "wrong" in how a victim reacts. Is it "wrong" if a person who has a "worse" rape is able to brush it off? Does that reaction mean that actually that type of rape isn't so bad either?

And as I mentioned, the law accounts for circumstances surrounding a rape in terms of aggravating factors.

No, Seven, I said that the number of rape victims who are murdered would go up, not that every rape victim would be murdered.
I also suspect that if a mandatory life sentence were brought in, there would be huge publicity about that, so that men would become more aware of the definition of rape and the possible consequences to them.
What would help far more than bringing in a mandatory life sentence, which would also be very unjust in some cases and very expensive, would be making reforms to ensure a far higher rate of reports, charges and convictions. At the moment men know that they are very likely to get away with it. Women know that too, and some therefore don't report.

", surely you're more likely to want the one witness to your crime out of the way?"

It's a lot harder to get away with murder than get away with rape. Whatever you think of anyone's morality, surely it's obvious that disposing of a dead body, especially when 85% or more of rapes are committed by a friend, acquaintance or family member, is a pretty big deal to get away with.

If you read the thread Cooroo you will see that the law already accounts for the difference in the two situations you describe.

You assume that all men who rape are capable of murder.

You assume that all men who rape see what they have done as rape.

You have a poor view of men, and a poor understanding of human behaviour. Or maybe just a weak grasp on the complexities of this subject.

Confession: I haven't read all through the thread. Many years ago I experienced what would probably be called date rape. I had drunk a bit too much, felt ill and didn't want to embark on sex with this man whom I had previously fancied. I said I really didn't want sex and he said 'fine we'll just share the bed' (was away from home, no other real option).

Anyway as you might guess he came on to me anyway and I sort of tolerated it because I felt I'd given out willing signals earlier. I was hugely relieved when he fell asleep andade excuse to leave early in the morning.

Technically it was rape. But at no moment did I fear for my life or well-being. If a knife had been involved I think the trauma would have stayed with me for life, as it is it really wasn't a big deal.

I know I will get flamed for this. But if you call that rape, then there are degrees and I am eternally glad my younger self didn't experience anything worse.

I suspect that the reason there are so many rapes is because men know that they will never be prosecuted in the first place, not because the current punishment level is too low. If a man considering rape knew that he would definitely be caught and prosecuted successfully, he wouldn't do it unless he WAS unable to control himself.

If you've just raped someone, and you know that if you get caught you will get life imprisonment, surely you're more likely to want the one witness to your crime out of the way?

When you're arguing something on the basis of logic, it's normal practice to use clear-cut examples to illustrate your point. And it's a bit silly to say that all incidents of rape justify life imprisonment, except for those that probably wouldn't be reported to the police anyway.

YY lonny

Also we are continually told that rape is a crime second only to murder in severity.

So why the aghast reaction to the suggestion it attract a life sentence?

Because of course it isn't actually considered to be a crime second only to murder in severity. What people are talking about when they say that is "proper" rape. And if the rapist is someone you know who got "carried away" and actually he seems like a nice chap and he's got a job and everything then the punishment should be nothing whatsoever.

cailin quite right.

Men tell themselves they just got "carried away" to justify to themselves why they raped someone.

Lonny - a mandatory life sentence for every rape? Really? I'm guessing that the percentage of women murdered after rape would go up a lot if that law were passed.

I completely disagree with your argument theherb because I don't believe men have some absolute uncontrollable urge to rape. I don't believe they are at the mercy of their urges. I actually think better of them than that.

Therefore if the sentences for all rapes were higher, rape would reduce because men would know 'I'm likely going to prison for this.' They would NOT think 'oh I just have to go and do a rape, better kill her too.'

(apols for triggering language)

In reality of course, the vast majority of rapes go unreported. Why is that? Because women (and men) know that if they have been raped by someone they know, it will not be taken seriously, so what's the point. Because it's MILD RAPE, to use Dawkin's delightful phrasing.

He is not saying anything mind-bendingly new is he. He's saying what society and many in positions of power including the police think. That if someone you know rapes you then so what. A "proper" rape is a stranger attacking a nun. With lots of extra violence for good measure.

Women know this, they know what people think, and they keep their mouths shut about what's done to them.

It's a shitty state of affairs.

This all comes hot on the heels of the NHS posters which tell women they were asking for it if they had had a drink.

FFS.