New campaign to allow partners to stay on maternity wards.

I am very uncomfortable about this. I was on a ward for 3 weeks before and after having DS. The night I was being induced was spent listening to a woman talking to her partner on a mobile who seemed to be on the run after stabbing someone! I was terrified he'd turn up! What if partners had been allowed in????

I think your experience was terrible but it was unusual

I don't think it is particularly unusual for visitors to behave in a staggeringly inappropriate manner during visiting time. It's certainly not unusual for them to be disruptive in smaller ways. This policy would make visiting time a constant without respite. No other inpatient would be expected to put up with it. I still maintain I am not clutching my pearls and find it massively condescending for my concerns to be dismissed as such.

Partners could only be accommodated in private, en-suite rooms with millions of pounds of investment. It wouldn't be my top priority. My hospital closed maternity 97 times in the last year, sometimes for longer than 48 hours. Thats with women crammed into bays. We need to get the basics right for the actual patients before worrying about visitors.

"I think your experience was terrible but it was unusual. "

That particular experience might have been unusual, but the experience of men acting entitled, bullying and scary and the experience of being treated like shit during/ after labour?

Not at all unusual.

Well that's true. I would have liked DP to stay in a room with me and everyone else's partners to be in other rooms.

You know personally when I was alone with all three of my newborns through the long nights - especially dd1 who was in special care and had meningitis - it was when I learned that the buck stopped with me. There was no one else.

But I think partners could easily be accommodated in private rooms with their partners. I think it would be a nice thing for them.

I think that was most peoples view on other thread - however it's not what is currently possible in most cases and not what this group is actually campaigning for.

It also being in problems of monitoring - making sure the rooms are all visible - which good design in new builds could do - but might be a lot harder in older existing buildings.

I think 'most other mothers' have actually said they would have liked their loved one with them overnight. But have then qualified it to accommodate the needs and wishes if everyone else, in the way that women are taught to do.

Actually I'm not that altruistic - I thought yes to my DH but fuck no to having to deal with everyone else’s visitors.

If I could have mine and no-one was allowed theirs around me I'd be happy. It's just not very likely really - at least not IME of current facilities.

Then it’s a quick mental calculation of benefits of my DH, considerable but with good staff would be less, verses the hell other visitors can be/are and having those overnight as well as during the day.

I can image other women feel the same as me - but I'm not sure that's actually accommodating their needs instead of mine- though I might express it like that as god forbid I appear selfish. That expression might well be social conditioning but the sentiment behind it isn’t.

Funnily enough I was induced with DD1 on a day ward with families and children running around and was struggling with the pain, a woman suddenly pulled back the curtain and ran to get the midwife. Who administered diamorphine to help me (shut me up) and later I was pushed to tears by another woman loudly complaining that I was snoring. I remember making DP promise to wake me if I started snoring. Of course he didn't.

I think your experience was terrible but it was unusual.

I don't think men should be in bay's overnight. Mainly due to lower dragging levels and the venerability that women feel at night. I wouldn't have liked it at all.

But I think partners could easily be accommodated in private rooms with their partners. I think it would be a nice thing for them.

TheBogQueen Read my post and tell me I'm pearl clutching. Not all women on maternity wards have delivered. Some of them are delivering, or at least in active labour. It's not pearl clutching to not want an aggressive strange man at your bedside telling you to shut the fuck up during your contractions.

The reason why it's different at night is that most people can survive the extra noise and disruption during the day. Women who feel vulnerable or fearful can stay awake and vigilant but we have to sleep sometime. No matter how lovely they are, 6 couples are noisier than 6 individuals and endless noise is worse than 12 hour bursts.

I think you are re- constructing my arguments in a rather extreme way.

I've never said I supported these changes to the NHS, merely pointing out the reality of the changes the current government has made.

I think 'most other mothers' have actually said they would have liked their loved one with them overnight. But have then qualified it to accommodate the needs and wishes if everyone else, in the way that women are taught to do.

My point if view is that having men in bays overnight will strain an already over stretched service which outweighs if the benefits of providing emotional and practical comfort to women.

But I don't think
It should be dismissed out if hand - women gave said they would want partners ( men, mothers, sisters) properly accommodated in private rooms. I think many, many women would like their partner there with them. And I don't see why it's a problem to try to achieve that - unless you think it's selfish and god forbid a woman should ever be selfish

BogQueen, if you are supportive of a system which prioritises certain women based on connection to a man, their own social status and ability to pay, that is your perogative.

The issue in hand is whether MN should support this campaign on behalf of all women. The answer to that seems to be no, because what benefits you seems to be detrimental to most other mothers, in the opinion of most other mothers who have responded.

Was talking to dh about this thread and recalled the first night I'd had dd and him and dd1 had gone home.
I had had a section so bed bound with bag of piss attached to me and felt myself start to bleed so rang bell.
Convo with mw "I'm bleeding heavily"
"How much, is it clots?"
"No but it's flowing heavily I can feel it running out constantly"
"Can I see your pad?"
Much shuffling about painfully to allow this
"Oh yes it's a lot isn't it ill call the dr"
Etc etc blah blah. Not a conversation I'd have enjoyed with someone's husband sat behind a curtain two feet away from me.
I also had a lot of wind too, woke myself up with it!!

No the NHs in England is increasingly provided by private companies and in a few years it will be unrecognisable as a 'socialist' system. Yes you will get your varicose veins done by Virgin Healthcare but if hospital botches the op, the tricky expensive stuff wi be done by NHS.

Which leads to another question - will we find increasingly women asked to pay to get a certain standard of maternity care? You want a loved one with you? pay for the privilege wi be the answer.

Kinda knocks socialism/feminism into the long grass doesn't it. The profit incentive matters much more these days.

Women are expected to put the needs of the group before their own individual needs in these circumstances because:

A. It is a collective hospital environment.
B. It is a socialist health care system not private.
C. This is the feminist section. Feminism is a collective movement.
D. Women who culturally expect a male partner to be there are likely to be women who already benefit from the lower status of other women. - the partners of whitemale middle class men.
E. Bringing in overnight stays segregated from other women will be expensive and take resources away from other more essential maternity services.

What I liked about the other thread was just how many women stated that while they would have liked their partner there they appreciated that other women may not have wanted him/her present. I thought there was a real sense of paying attention to the needs of all women.
Absolutely agree that it's papering over the cracks. I am disappointed to find an organisation such as Birthright considering taking this up as an issue rather than campaigning for adequate resources in maternity wards as a starter to ensure that needs are met.

Really interesting question Bog. From a feminist perspective women are encouraged to reject that first impulse (of wanting someone who loves us there with us) because a) we're socialised to put other people's needs first and b) we're aware of just how problematic the issue is in the real world in which we live in terms of the feelings of comfort and safety of most women and c) we're suspicious of the motivation of the NHS in doing this - I think it's understandable that we feel suspicious that it's more about papering over cracks in care, than meeting women's needs. There may be lots of other reasons which don't spring to mind just now but someone else might come along who can articulate them.

Based on the nursing sisters and practitioners I have known...I think staff consciously and reflexively work on these sort of interactions. I think most women and men I have known who work as nurses (and some midwives) are capable of dealing with a havering husband.

The patient is the centre of care, that is the mantra, action is based on clinical need not because Nigel feels his wife needs extra pillows...

But I think that the extra bodies there during the night, when staffing is reduced anyway, could put alot if pressure of the 'can I get a drink of water' kind.

A lot of posters have stated they would like their partner there but not other peoples partners there - myself included. Am wondering why, from a feminist perspective, women are encouraged to reject that first impulse -I would like a person I love to be with me - and defer to the needs of others rather than looking at ways this could be achieved to suit everyone.

Some hospitals are already doing it but fur it to be universal it would require substantial
Investment in 'family rooms' etc and we all know how likely that is unless you are willing to pay fur it

I am really shocked by the article on Birthrights' website that Lurcio linked to. It claims that since Ann Oakley's book on childbirth was published in 1980 'there has been a resounding silence on the relationship between the feminist project, birthing and motherhood ... it has thus far remained on the margins of debate.'

It also quotes a speech from one of the board members of Birthrights, Elizabeth Prochaska, saying 'there is a need to match up feminist discourse with women’s experiences of their bodily integrity through pregnancy and childbirth ... feminism is quite uncomfortable with the concept of motherhood. It doesn’t know what to say about it or construct it in any positive way'. Um, WTF?

I also find it problematic from a feminist perspective that their website positions them specifically as a 'human rights in childbirth' organisation, thus erasing the reality that pregnancy and childbirth are overwhelmingly women's rights issues. Once you position it as a general human rights issue, it is not a very big leap before you start saying 'well what are men's human rights around birth?' and this proposal seems very much in that vein.

Bog you haven't addressed my point about how the psychological dynamics of being a visitor vs being entitled to be there will affect how the ward works.

I know it's a very nebulous point, it's very hard to quantify and define and of course it's very easy to deny - as a society, we're totally invested in denial about inequality between men and women and the difference in entitlement and ownership of space and it can be brushed aside airily because we can't prove it, all the examples we give can be dismissed as individual teething problems rather than a systemic thing - but it's there, it affects women and it will damage women's experience of having babies in the NHS even more than the NHS already damages us.

I think the thing is, BoG, that people feel more vulnerable at night.

Yes that is a really good point.

What I am questioning is the logic of the argument - surely privacy is then an issue during the day on wards? And the answer is to provide single rooms? And then partners could stay?

There are good reasons fur not having men in wards at night - patients need peace and quiet, women may feel vulnerable trying to sleep while partners are on the ward, it gives HCP space to have quiet chats with women they are concerned about.

But arguments snout 'mansplaining' and disruption caused by having men on a post natal ward don't hold water - they are there fir a good proportion of the day, tins not an issue. Surely if hospital has facilities then it's no big deal to have men stay the night? In fact a friend did this with her husband overnight and it was lovely for the family.

BogQueen I suffer from ptsd due to a very abusive relationship with dd1s father. If I were to arrive down to a ward, babe in arms to find your dh or anyones dh/dp bedding down for the night I would demand that they either go home or they move me somewhere else. I would certainly not be comfortable trying to sleep with a strange man inches from me.

Pearl-clutching is a really dismissive way to airily wave away genuine concerns. It's what always happens to women, our concerns are treated dismissively even in the face of having put forward actual events that bear out what we are saying.

To address your point, the reason it makes a difference is in the way the space works. As soon as men get the right to be there 24/7, the space becomes their's. It subtly changes the dynamic of the space where currently they are visitors - they will become occupants. They will brush the women patients aside and yes, HCP's are trained to deal with difficult bastards, but a) training doesn't always overcome societal conditioning, the HCP's who are mostly on the ward are female and socialised to defer to men and b) even the ones who have managed to overcome socialisation are too busy and overworked to prioritise dealing with low-level nuisance in favour of women's comfort and feelings of safety. Yes, they'll deal with the outright abusive ones (sometimes) but there will simply not be time to deal with the less obviously outrageous entitled willy-wavers. There will probably be at least one per ward of those and that's going to be fun for everyone else, isn't it.

Jesus, the one time women should be free not to have to placate men's sense of entitlement, is when we've just given birth. Now that's too much to bloody ask.

Not just concerns about privacy either - concerns about safety on the ward. Did you not read Sock's post? Do you think she's making those up?

Please don't call women's concerns about privacy after childbirth "pearl-clutching" BogQueen.