Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

The debate is framed as radfem ideaology being incompatible with trans ideaology, in terms of definitions of gender. But it seems as though trans politics is the one rejecting all forms of feminism. There seems to be lip service paid to the notion of feminism, sure, but no real recognition that women are oppressed at all. A sense that it's a bunch of dafties complaining when there is real oppression to be fought.
So why wouldn't feminists devote their time to the trans cause, it's not like they have much going on themselves.

That's not a comment on individuals, just an observation of the tone of the whole thing

Hear, hear, ReallyFuckingFedUp. Well said.

Nail on head RFFU.

some people need to check their privilege.

Possibly the most irritating phrase ever invented Monty. Especially when referring to women against men.

If a scholarship created to help a woman who has done exceptionally well in STEM despite being a female and being pushed in to other directions goes to a man who had all the advantages of being a man... (though he now identifies as a woman even if he has a penis). Is it women refusing to check their privilege? Or men?

If the local police force have a quota for females and the job goes to a 6ft 3, 16 stone trans woman. Who has the privilege?

If transwomen who were raised to speak over women and have their voices heard use their voices to shout down women and say they can't fight for reproductive rights because they aren't "women's issues" (because they can't get pregnant) who is exerting their privilege there?

What privilege do I have? That I am a woman and love dresses and nail polishes and fancy handbags so I must be cis? Because I don't. Because I wear jeans and plain tshirts and I wear my hair tied back and I have hairy legs and pits. What makes me woman is that I have a vagina and have been judged because of it. I am judged for not performing femininity as much as a trans woman is judge for performing it. But not performing it doesn't make me a man. But if I buy in the the trans idea of being a woman I am actually a man. They are defining who I am as male. And I reject that. Their privilege is allowing them to redefine womanhood.

Irritated? Am I supposed to apologise? This is a new thread about the issue so it's not as if the matter's been settled? Or maybe some people think it has.

I shall scan the threads. Thank you for posting them.

Crotchmaven, that is precisely what made me uncomfortable, that the joke was on women, and as one of two women in the room, both unpromoted, on me. I thought the story/joke was staggeringly inappropriate, but it also gets to the heart of the matter. The discrimination I face is because I am a mother, juggling work and dc, as well as generations of baggage about what it means to be a woman.

Dervel, am on a different page, so can't check I have your name right, the point about space I think is the wider social context and not just the individual. If you have been physically or sexually abused by a man, it does not matter who the individual opposite you is, whether they have body dysphoria or not, there will be an instinctive feeling of fear at their physical presence. That is the best way I can explain it. I would like to be open and 'PC' about this, but because of things that have happened to me, I would leave a changing room if there was a male physical form there. That is not me being transphobic, it is me protecting my emotional well-being.

That apart, I shall slowly work my way through the threads listed.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2082153-TERF

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/2107862-Following-on-from-the-TERF-thread

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2117350-MNHQ-now-email-posters-with-how-to-get-around-the-talk-guidelines

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/other_subjects/2120841-MNHQ-are-going-to-decide-what-constitutes-transphobia-on-MN-What-advice-guidelines-would-you-give-them

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/other_subjects/2122564-MNHQ-transphobia-guidelines-part-2

With the disclaimer that I'm wading into something I have next to no idea about I have a question or two with absolutely no agenda beyond aqainting myself with the situation, and if there is a frustration over going over old ground just pointing me in the direction of another thread would be greatly appreciated.

Isn't gender disphoria a condition where you are born the wrong gender? If so aren't transsexual women basically women? Vice versa transsexual men. I can also appreciate this is an absolute clusterfuck of confusion all round? Irrespective of biology I can hardly imagine we're anywhere close to singing from the same hymn sheet on this, but wouldn't female identifying transsexuals often be naturally on the side of feminists? I must be missing something crucial.

I can imagine there could be some issue over female only spaces like changing rooms etc, I don't think I'd be all that fussed with a male identifying transgendered person changing in the men's with me, but I can also see the context is different I'm a man and not traditionally preyed upon.

Romeyroo, don't worry! I was feeling irritated by the challenge from MontyGlee. There are recent threads that I could link to if you have hours to spare

I was in difficult circs in 2004 too, hence why it all passed me by. Or maybe the debate never happened then, which is why it is going on now. Transactivists believe they are women and are blocking attempts by people they claim are ciswomen to discuss freely the issues that affect women born as women. It's a mess.

And your story is something that feminists have a huge problem with. The joke was on women. Because they could maintain the status quo whilst seeming "PC". Or human, using another term.

Romey, don't apologise. It was interesting.

Sorry I wrote that long post before I read the comment about having been through threads and threads of this, and the diversion onto the tour. Apologies...x-post ignore

Crotchmaven, I am not sure I was aware in 2004?6?that the GRA had effectively abolished the meaning of 'women'. I had just become a single parent in difficult circumstances and my world was very insular for a while. I do remember feeling very confused, if I am honest, because of the conflict between wanting to support people with body dysphoria (sp?) and thinking, 'but you can't just become a woman?!?'

Nonetheless, the law recognises transwomen as women for legal purposes, it does not mean they are women. What is the difference? I was in a predominantly male meeting where the following story was told. I had just re-entered the room so I don't know the background (anecdote, blog, joke?) and senior male colleague was recounting that there was a man in the US who told her boss that she was going transition to become a woman. She had been dreading telling her boss, but he was very supportive. He actually told her that is great as it would contribute to gender parity (women are underrepresented on the staff), women are paid less and she, as a trainwoman, was not likely to go on maternity leave. Bingo.

Everybody in the room laughed. I still don't see the joke. Who is the joke at the expense of? And what I would really like to know, is it a joke or true?

I don't know, I don't want to offend anyone, I saw a lovely programme once about a young man who wanted to be a woman. He was completely distressed and very genuine and not a threat to anyone. His mum struggled to come to terms with it but ended up helping him buy feminine clothes and 'come out' as a woman. And this is where it is difficult because he was lovely and genuine, and he didn't need to be a masculine boy or anything like that, but I didn't and don't understand why he could not just be [name] however he wanted. But then I also don't know what it feels like to look at a part of your body and think, that should not be there.

I didn't go, due to work, but passed through the crowdsto get there. The atmosphere was amazing, plus beautiful weather. I'm glad everyone got to have a good time.

almondcakes, yes I did! I'm still feeling a bit overwrought about how marvellous Yorkshire looked and was over the weekend.

We've just been through all of this.

CrotchMaven, did you enjoy the tour?

No doubt people that spend a lot of time in the library have found some good arguments why not, but in the real world of course they do.

Taken seriously professionally? Hardly?
Everybody thinks your body / sexuality is their business? Check.
Constant threat of physical attack? Yep.
Joked about / lewd suggestions? That too...
Treated completely differently, usually negatively? Bloody right.

The list goes on. Some people need to check their privilege.

No, they don't. There are threads and threads and threads explaining that and everything else about why there are threads and threads and threads.

Do you want some links?

I don't really understand why some feminists are threatened by the issue; trans women face just about all the inequalities, judgements and abuse that we talk about, but far far worse.

Why now? Because women's rights are under threat of being removed, the situation is worse now than it was 20 years ago and transactivists are creating a situation where feminist discourse is being distorted when it is very much needed. As elucidated very clearly on the recent threads relating to trans issues.

I don't know how to ask this without seeming challenging, but please trust me that I ask in good faith - as a late 70s feminist, what did you think when the GRA effectively abolished the meaning of "woman"?

Suffragettes, Rosa Parks, the original Stonewall, gay prides, etc.

I'm really tired of a homophobic, misogynistic movement being compared to Stonewall and the Suffragettes. The appropriation of the Civil Rights movement doesn't sit well with me, either.

I'm interested to know how it is that it's been feminists keeping trans*people oppressed? And, as it hasn't been feminists, why is it feminists who keep being told to die in a fire?

Rosa parks, suffragettes, gay pride. That was all about equal rights. It was never about getting a group you see as oppressing you to actively take up your case.

If trans activist really see radfems as a hate group it would have been like Jews insisting nazis take up their cause. There are no black people demanding access to the white power movement. Radical feminist don't appeal to fundamentalist Christan men's groups to champion our causes.

So why do they want access to radical feminist groups? Why are they so confused that radical feminist don't want to work for them? Is it because they aren't actually at all oppressed by women and are confused that there are women who don't feel they have bow down to them?

I think there has been a growing visibility of trans issues, which in many ways I think models the path homosexuality took. Repressed, discriminated, feared thirty years ago etc to the point where we are now where it's not 100% respected and de stigmatised but where it's 'allowed' in societal terms. As another stigmatised minority group who have seen others win rights, transactivists have now moved into that fighting position.

I also think that it has been taken up by the new younger generation of feminists who see a new edgy battleground to fight on, one that is very different from third, second and first wave feminism. A lot of the older battles are tired and still haven't been won (or we have been told that they aren't important, or aren't even battles at all), this is an exciting new one around direct discrimination that has generated reams of current discussion and a whole new set of language. A lot of these younger women perhaps haven't had the feminist conscious raising that often comes with motherhood or the shock when youth/beauty fade.

There has also been a current popular wave of discussions around gender theories and it's cultural constructions, epitomised by things like the popularity of Cordelia Fine's work, Let Toys be Toys and the Pink Stinks campaign etc. All this has generated a great deal of discussion about acceptance and identity, fluidity of gender boundaries etc. To be see as tolerant and accepting of self-defined identity rather than racist, sexist etc is now more important than it has been in the past. All of this is positive but it's easy to accept and welcome this new tolerance without perhaps thinking about where it might be taking us. The ideal of a brave new world where we all live peacefully and acceptingly is wonderful, but I think it ignores the fact that battles still need to be fought for women.