Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

We have been spending too much time together. I am off to the pram boards to widen my vernacular.

ha ha ha Buffy, our numbered paragraph posts cross posted. I should have used "a" and "b"!

"You seriously think that, in the UK, women as a class face a tougher time than trans women? You're off your rocker."

This isn't what it is about. It's too simplistic - it isn't about a hierarchy of oppression, in which the more miserable you are being made by society, the more you have the right to order everyone else about.

1. Do I think that bodies which are biologically male should be allowed to wear what they want including dresses and feminine make up and not suffer for it? - yes, absolutely

1. Do I think that the owners of such bodies get to co-opt feminism and womanhood? - no, because that is making women and their sex instrumental to other people's sense of self, rather than primarily human beings in their own right

Are people like this trying to co opt feminism and womanhood, rather than just trying to get by and have a job and a life in the persona they feel comfortable with? - apparently so. I don't know the relative numbers of each. This is the bit that a lot of mn-ers are only just learning. It seems obvious that you are a heartless bastard if you deny 1. but its conflation with 2, and the smuggling of 2 under the radar, is what needs to be looked at

Monty you are overcomplicating it, it is not JUST about socialisation, it is about the concept of thinking 'like a woman' or dressing 'like a woman'

To accept that, you have to accept that women think, act and dress in a certain way.

I think a lot of people who look like the 'opposite' gender or simply move/walk/look differently to how some assume they should, find life very difficult. It is not isolated to transpeople.

I get it; if someone is raised and socialised as one gender, but is convinced that they are the other, then there is a suggestion that there is a natural difference. This is contrary to radfem theory, so...

I just know that I give thanks that it's not something I have to deal with. The abuse, not fitting into society, the stripping of dignity... It must be horrible.

and

I want to hang out in Radfem town :)

Huh, Monty? What has that got to do with anything? You do know that there are plenty of passing trans people - you might know trans people and not be aware that they are trans?

And by the same token, there are plenty of not-trans but gender non-conforming people, including plenty of lesbians, who deal with the fallout from being gender non-conforming every day. It's hardly confined to non-passing trans women, and never has been.

I am consistently grateful to the feminists on thks board who give me food for thought and a quick bit of educating when I dip in and out. Thank you.

Ask your average woman to spend a day as an unskilled labourer on a building site and see how she gets on...

Makes about as much sense as an analogy.

Try this instead. Imagine a poor black woman in Mississippi or Texas who's had a contraception failure. According to one allegedly feminist website someone linked to recently the most important issue facing abortion providers is to get their language right so it includes transmen who might need abortions. Really? Seriously?

Ask a male friend or relative to spend a day carrying out normal business in a dress, wig and make up and then let me know how they get on. Then we can talk about who's living in a bubble.

And you must be a very, very privileged person living in a bubble to think so, Monty.

You seriously think that, in the UK, women as a class face a tougher time than trans women? You're off your rocker.

The fact remains that their day-to-day life is a gauntlet of attitudes and barriers that are far worse than most of us will ever have to endure. No theorising about hypothetical positions is going to change that.

If that's truly the case for you, then I'm glad for you. It isn't the case for many other women, nor for the class of women as a whole.

And yes, the current strand of extreme trans activism is mostly what we are talking about on these threads, and I haven't seen anybody contest the fact that there are plenty of trans women just trying to live their lives in peace - this has been stated again and again. But it is the extreme, misogynistic, homophobic trans activism that is setting the policy agenda and changing norms, so yes, that's what many of us focus on. Because we have to.

monty you state that transwomen face barriers much greater than most of us ever will

who are you assuming is 'us' - who is included and who is excluded?

check your own privilege

... and (sorry for the quick-fire posts) are we judging all trans women by the opinons of some?

I can see that there are clashes between feminism and some elements of trans-politics. Fair enough... but that's not what I said. A person and their politics are two separate things.

The fact remains that their day-to-day life is a gauntlet of attitudes and barriers that are far worse than most of us will ever have to endure. No theorising about hypothetical positions is going to change that.