Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

And thanks for being so nice to me.

As if anyone was in any doubt, I agree with Tanacot; I was being very rude when i said it - and I apologise - but there is a heirarchy within feminism with some people feeling they 'own' the issue; they sigh with annoyance when you state opinions based on emotions and reflection rather than several decades of doctrinal study and they want to have final approval over everything. Their obsession actually excludes them from a normal society that can't relate to them. Feminism needs a ground swell of common support, but I read a thread somewhere a few days ago where two '70s' veterans detail their annoyance with third wavers.

Sorry. That was really touchy. I'm so used to being told I am anti-intellectual and playing Oppression Olympics for mentioning things like that and I fast-forwarded on you, which is just not fair of me at all and now I've made it all about me. Sorry. Can we forget.

On the subject of a fourth wave, it would be great to get some of these ideas out to tumblr etc because I only see gender theory and choice/individualism stuff out there. I mean I don't think getting into massive wanks and failz is gonna help but just like, embedding videos like that Gail Hines one and linking to that amazing wordpress with all those books on (I have been reading like a maniac!). Was thinking about 5 point memes etc, but then I wonder whether all that stuff actually diffuses energy and flattens it all into something, idk, consumable trivia like My Game of Thrones Name or whatever. It's hard to know.

My generation can recognise it on tv but not so much in real life, and there's no obvious action to take, anyway. I think a lot of people, well, you think "yes and so... what?" I mean, it's not enough to figure out you're being shat on. You also need some clue on what to do about it. That's something that is missing, somehow, from the conversation I see. But I know that it hasn't always been -- I know that people set up shelters and changed laws etc in the past.

com = come

Never mind Reclaim the Night, round here we haven't reclaimed the day. This.

Tanacot another one here saying you have an amazing way with words. I really enjoyed your posts.

When I first started on MN I used the phrase 'cis privilege' and got my arse handed to me. I've done a lot of reading on here since and have com to see the radfem position in the debate. The idea of a 'cotton ceiling' repulsed me and crystallised what some activists really think about women. I've become much more radicalised as a result of these threads which isn't a bad thing.

I looked at some transactivists sites a while ago and was shocked at the hatred: 'die cis scum' FFS.

Just donated - thanks for the number!

Tanacot - don't go. You are absolutely right. If a set of ideas is massively important to everyone's lives, people from all sorts of backgrounds, then we should all be trying our damndest to express them in everyday language. (And, as someone pointed out on another thread, often the refusal to even try indicates not that the ideas are intrinsically complicated, but that the person writing the "academic spiel" is trying to hide the fact that the emperor has no clothes).

Loved everything you said, tanacot. I'd be surprised if anyone found it offensive. Feminism needs all perspectives.

JustTheRight the WomensAid employment guidelines explicitly say they would hire trans women (who have the right skills), but only ones who have transitioned and have Gender Reassignment Certificates. But appaz they are still transphobic because reasons...

(Seriously, if you are attacking DV services, your political movement has truly jumped the shark. But even this isn't new - Sophiaphotos on twitter has been talking about "taking down" the Vancouver rape crisis shelter for some time. Because that's a feminist thing to do. Or something.)

supremacist, no less.

Roll over, eh

Sorry for triple post. I just remembered that I actually came on here to say that I saw the term 'cis-supremacist' being used the other day in all seriousness.

Don't go Tanacot. Please. This is my fault for introducing academic feminism in the first place. I don't want to discuss it, I just cite it as one of the reasons for why we are in the context that we are with regards to feminism, gender, transgenderism, etc. All I meant by what I said is that there are fashions and movements within academia and I think currently we are (generally, obviously not everywhere) in a current academic fashion of 'gender' being something to study rather than something to consciousnesses raise about and smash.

That's all I want to say on the subject and it isn't an accusation against all women academics or all academics feminists or all feminist teaching by a long way. The major influences and fashions in academia filter down into the media, culture, politics, etc and that is why fashions in them matter.

Never mind Reclaim the Night, round here we haven't reclaimed the day.

Yes to this. You have a brilliant way with words Tanacot.

I know what you mean. Not where I live now but part of my growing up.

Oh look, you know what. Forget I said that. I know how this will go and I honestly don't want to be disruptive to your vibe here because I do mean what I say about being very happy for it to go on and I understand my words and opinions are incompatible with that.

It was a mistake on my part and I withdraw. Please accept my apologies.

I'm not "writing off" academic feminism btw. I'm very happy for it to go on and exist and I support you in your endeavour by paying taxes etc. In fact I have raised and also given my own money for women (in general and some specific women I know) to go to university and supported them in real life by looking after their kids etc so they can go to stuff. All I'm saying is the language and preoccupations (deconstructing this and Lacan that) has got nowt to do with me or my life here and it hasn't. Here we need things like access to law, escape from men, access to (ironically) education, safety in public spaces. Never mind Reclaim the Night, round here we haven't reclaimed the day.

I always butt up against academics and it upsets me because I'm really not against you lot at all but just having ideas and opinions without reference to academia seems to be a massive challenge to academics, and I can't understand it. You can't be part of an institution that is exclusionary and then get sniffy when the people you exclude just get on with their lives without you.

I mean, you can, but it's silly. It's just really silly and also a bore. I never went to university because I was shoved into this house caring for DH 24 hours a day with no help and support when I was a teenager and was kept here until very recently. I mean literally trapped in the house, unable to leave for more than an hour at a time. My first night "off" was my 30th birthday-- I stayed at my brother's house. Of my neighbours, I am by far the lucky one. The preoccupations of academia are honestly, to us, beyond a joke.

You are absolutely right, Tanacot.

Point 2 works for other situations, too. I was a nerd at school, but one of my big sisters was popular, and definitely one of the coolest girls. She was always getting "you aren't like those other Blacks" from people who were basically racist but who liked her because: cool. (It was the 70s, so language was different then.)

Hint: it isn't a compliment.

I posted this on another thread just now. The question and what about the women? is quite a useful tool. And I think it's analytical but also can be simple. So in your first situation the question and what about the women? You migth get answers like where are the women, why aren't there other women here? what does that mean for me as a women? How are women spoken about in this group?

Th question is from a sociology text book by Ritzer (although he gets two women to write the feminist chapter)

I was talking to a mate of mine yesterday about this - not the academia stuff really because we never went and it's not really...I mean, on my street so far as I know there's only one woman who went to university, so all that stuff is just not really anything to do with the feminism we need here. I can't use that in this neighbourhood. One thing we talked about was how we could have done with some basic analytical tools as younger women to recognise harmful situations. Like, just a sort of checklist:

1. If you're in a friendship group and there are plenty of older men and no older women, those men are not your friends.
2. If a guy tells you 'You're not like those other girls' he is not on your side. Because you are a girl and he's just told you he despises them.
3. ..?

Do you know what I mean? Just some more basic stuff. Not about "not getting raped" which is all bullshit, I mean more things like how to look at patterns in your life and what questions to ask yourself. On the Relationships board I notice that women start listening when posters they have never met can predict actual lines (the script, they sometimes call it I think) their own husbands have spoken.

Sure Romeyoo. I mean academic feminism NOT feminists in academia.

By which I mean how feminism is taught and dealt with as a subject in the academy so things like many departments calling Women's Studies, Gender Studies. Important feminist texts such as Sexual Politics, Right-Wing Women, Gyn/Ecology, Toward a Feminist Theory of the State being neglected, indeed, generally not taught at all. Plus the influence of philosophers like Judith Butler and subsequently, Queer Theory.

Yes I have to say I feel more radicalised every day. In part to do with trans issues but for me issues around motherhood and mothering have really broken a veil to what the world thinks of women.

Ages and ages ago I started a thread about people hating women and time and time again I see that reinforced through discussions on motherhood, working, experience of the world.

And what is hardest for me is that day by day I am finding it harder to hold my tongue. I don't want to upset or offend people but at the same time I'm finding it harder and harder not to say what I see. I don;t try to be nasty and I think I'm a very choice based feminist but we are so trapped within our structures those choices are hardly ever based or real agency and understanding.

And I'm finding every where I turn that the answer really does seam o be a complete overhaul of the structures that govern us. That I hope will bring and end to patriarchy but also capitalism which seams like patriarchy dressed up as a nicer more respectable cousin when really it;s just as creepy, nasty and controlling.

subbing, sorry, or I'll lose this thread. I know that's bad form. Sorry.