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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

182 replies

UptheChimney · 06/07/2014 08:31

That's it: what is at stake that this argument/attack on feminists from trans people has emerged at this moment?

As a late 70s feminist, my experience of trans issues was that there was huge discrimination for those who didn't fit into heteronormativity, and I could see how lesbian & gay people had much in common with trans people. And with feminists.

Solidaritry wasn't uniform: while lesbian feminism was very strong, gay men were pretty misogynist and elements of the male gay movement still are the non-monogamous etc etc versions of "gay lifestyles" are pretty masculinist in a very unreconstructed way: the idea that men are driven by sex, and should have the freedom to have sex when/where/whatever. But that's another thread.

So what are the views on why this battle between trans people and some feminists? Is it another "What about teh menz?" Is it because women are expected simply to care about everyone else?

Ideas? Views?

OP posts:
PetulaGordino · 09/07/2014 21:53

my dp is a teacher in a boys' secondary school. from what he has reported, it is unbelievably depressing how much sexist crap they have absorbed by the time they reach year 7. he works hard to challenge it (and to an extent they do listen to him because he is a male teacher ), but it's an uphill battle when the messages they are getting elsehwere reinforce the sexist crap

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/07/2014 21:49

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TeWiSavesTheDay · 09/07/2014 21:47

Xpost with you romey - you sound like a brilliant rolemodel. Grin

TeWiSavesTheDay · 09/07/2014 21:45

I really have no idea why we are surprised that children reach secondary make stereotypical career choices when there is so much focus on perceived gender differences in primary.

Romeyroo · 09/07/2014 21:45

Sorry, I am about a page behind as it took so long to type that out, and realise people have kind of made similar points.

Romeyroo · 09/07/2014 21:42

Sometimes maybe the distinction between academic and ordinary is overblown. Like I am a single parent who has survived an abusive relationship. I work with grassroots organisations which support women in my professional capacity. I face the dominant male culture every time I enter a staff meeting with my predominantly male colleagues. I stand up in front of 200 people and talk about women's position.

It may not change the world, and you are right, Tewi, the solution is dialogue between different groups of women, not barriers. But that requires a collective effort, it requires Buffy reshaping traditional ways of seeing, allied with grassroots campaigning; it requires lobbying Parliament allied with those personal acts of courage where you say enough of this life, let me find my own path. There is not one thing which will make the world a better place for our daughter's, but all of it; not one person, but many. For me personally, it is the simple act of being a single, working mother in a male-dominated environment and asserting my right to be there and to try, just try, to change the script a bit. It is a different world from a woman in different social circumstances, but I don't think it is an ivory tower. At least, not my little corner.

Not sure if that makes sense.

almondcakes · 09/07/2014 21:38

I think you're right.

One thing that holds me back is that I'm not at school, and I think it has to be led by young people. But it seems an urgent problem to me and I don't know what to do.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 09/07/2014 21:38

Also, the other thing that is making me pause is that I want to be sure I've got my theory - what I believe right. I don't want to do something half thought out.

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/07/2014 21:37

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TeWiSavesTheDay · 09/07/2014 21:32

Almond, that's where I'm pausing at the moment. At the moment I am thinking about the way boys and girls are segregated in schools - not single sex schools, or bathrooms. But different uniform codes, different sports options etc (ever noticed boys are offered sports they could earn a living at in the future and girls are offered rounders?)

Start at the beginning. Where children are socialised that girls and boys should be treated differently at school with different expectations.

But it's not fully formed at all. Just swirling around. Also need to look at what others are doing!

PetulaGordino · 09/07/2014 21:27

yes, i don't think the two are mutually exclusive at all. and as you say feminist academics find themselves in a world that is extremely hostile, in a different way perhaps to the world that tanacot describes, but part of the same problem

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/07/2014 21:24

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almondcakes · 09/07/2014 21:22

TeWi, what campaign would you like to see running in the UK for women and/or girls at the moment?

TeWiSavesTheDay · 09/07/2014 21:18

(and I really do genuinely think your work is awesome Buffy - I hope that comes across!)

TeWiSavesTheDay · 09/07/2014 21:15

I think what you are doing is important Buffy. (and others I'm sure)

But it doesn't feel like something I can positively engage with. I like having a campaign to stand behind and write letters and badger mps. There's a few great feminist ones going at the moment but right now I'm thinking what's next? Keep the momentum up keep pushing keep showing that there are solutions really quite simple ones...

Maybe I am being all youthful optimist, but if there is a ground swell of 'ordinary' women next to the academics, haven't we got a better chance of actually changing the way people think?

My dd1 has already started school I want it to be different for her.

PetulaGordino · 09/07/2014 21:05

if i've understood correctly buffy, in your work you're trying to bridge the gap between what tanacot's talking about and the traditional world of academia. or at least identify and describe the gap?

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/07/2014 21:01

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BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/07/2014 21:00

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CrotchMaven · 09/07/2014 20:04

Buffy! See, I'm not alone. You up for the challenge? Grin

BuffytheReasonableFeminist · 09/07/2014 19:53

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DoctorTwo · 09/07/2014 18:44

Tanacot, you say anti intellectual like it's a bad thing. :o You have to stay, you write so beautifully.

CrotchMaven · 09/07/2014 18:22

Tanacot, please stay. I love the way you write, not to mention your insight.

All I'm saying is the language and preoccupations (deconstructing this and Lacan that) has got nowt to do with me or my life here and it hasn't.

I think this is what I've been trying to say on other threads, but not as clearly. So, thank you.

TeWiSavesTheDay · 09/07/2014 16:40

Tanacot - I know exactly what you mean.

FloraFox · 09/07/2014 15:10

tanacot your post on the other thread about how people on tumblr think about issues was so perceptive and illuminating. I hope you stick around.

monty has that been your experience on FWR?

BriarRainbowshimmer · 09/07/2014 14:01

I mean I don't think getting into massive wanks and failz is gonna help but just like, embedding videos like that Gail Hines one and linking to that amazing wordpress with all those books on (I have been reading like a maniac!). Was thinking about 5 point memes etc, but then I wonder whether all that stuff actually diffuses energy and flattens it all into something, idk, consumable trivia like My Game of Thrones Name or whatever.

I don't know what a 5 point meme is but I think every single thing we can do is great. Get feminism/your point of view out there! Spread the ideas!