Why has the trans/sex/gender debate emerged at this moment?

So on Twitter it's okay to be a homophobic MRA as long as you identify as a transwoman?

"Let's talk about this. If you want. Labels with sexuality are really transphobic."

"For example. Saying you like women or men. It's binarist. And assumes gender normative appearance."

"Terms like gay and lesbian to imply attraction to the same sex/gender are actually really transphobic. Think about this. Seriously"

"Feminism by it's very nature is oppressive because it works on the idea that gender is binary. This or that."

The bullshit above is from a prominent trans woman on twitter: @sophiaphotos. See her timeline for the last 24 hours for more bullshit nuggets. Amazingly left unchallenged, for the most part.

Wow, rare example of a respectful dialogue tackling the issue of gender essentialism versus gender as social construct within the context of trans issues in a BTL discussion in the Guardian. And it hasn't been deleted by the mods! Well done Guardian mods and well done contributors (feel it's worth saying that, 'cos BTL in CIF is usually vile vile vile).

Article here

ChloeBlack

How does transgenderism fit in with one of the feminist rhetorics which recognises the limitations of and thus objects to gender stereotyping? In order to be transgender does one need to believe that there are inherent (non hormonal) differences between male and female brains?

JonquilSerpyllum ChloeBlack

There is a big difference between "don't treat people differently because they are male or female" and "there is no difference between males and females". The first one is feminism. The second is optimism. The experiences of women, and men, and transpeople, and everybody else in between, are different. The point is that people should be respected for who they are, and allowed to express who they are as they choose.

Getting down off my high horse, yes, the transgender and drag and so on communities can get into serious gender-essential stuff that annoys the heck out of me, but whatever. When they start trying to tell me how <strong>I</strong> should do femininity, that's when I get annoyed, and it hasn't happened so far.


ChloeBlack JonquilSerpyllum

I agree with you but I don't think my question has really been answered... Would transgenderism exist without gender stereotyping and culturally defined gender roles?



MarjaE ChloeBlack

I don't know. I think so. I know that sex-role stereotypes are everywhere in our society, and sex-role stereotypes have affected my feelings about my body. But I also know that, even as a child, I already had some sense that I needed to be a girl, even if I had no idea that I already was, and even if I thought everyone had comparable feelings. I also know that, even after transition, I don't feel femme. I also know that I feel sick and miserable when my t-count is too high or my e-count is too low, and I doubt that is just because of sex-role stereotypes and placebo effects.



ChloeBlack MarjaE

Thank you for replying and I am sorry to hear that you are feeling that way due to things that are out of your control. Seems v unlucky.



Durobrivan ChloeBlack

That's a slippery question to answer, because we might mean very different things by the terms involved, but I do think transgenderism is independent of gender stereotypes. Whatever they are. I'm cis female, have a science degree, teach computing and own a (small) chainsaw. Is my trans daughter succumbing to or defying stereotype by having quite a bit in common with me?

It seems to me that she simply is who she is. Who she was born to be.



noeldarlow1 ChloeBlack

There are real differences but nothing unique - much like height. Men are on average taller than women but you would not be able to self-identify your own gender if you were a brain in a jar and all you knew was your (ex..) height.

That's the key point: in order for transgender to exist in a physical sense - woman trapped in a man's body or vice versa - physical differences in brain structure must exist to such a degree that they allow an individual to identify their own gender. AFAIK that is not the case and there is essentially no such thing as a male brain or a female brain: just human brains.

This leaves us with transgender as a psychological disorder - a form of body dysmorphic disorder. I apologise if that offends anyone because that is not my intent. My argument is entirely based on brain structure, as far as I understand it. If there are real differences in male and female brains which allow us to self-identify gender, then I would be wrong.


Remy Guy Noe noeldarlow1

<a class="break-all" href="http://depot.knaw.nl/821/1/15106_285_swaab.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">depot.knaw.nl/821/1/15106_285_swaab.pdf</a>

I'd probably make the point to Jonquil that the trans activists who talk about the cotton ceiling are not only telling women how to do femininity, they're telling women who to have sex with, and this is way beyond the bounds of what's acceptable, but it's nice to see people talking about it without being moderated out of sight.

tanacot, love the point your mum made. Amen to that.

That's really interesting, Crotch. I am similar but flipped - posh mum, working class dad. Not that I can say I have strong insight into others though tbh.

So I think one reason I’m so troubled by the trans narrative being incontestible is that I recognise so much of it, personally. I was told I wanted to be a boy, that I was really a boy, over and over and over as a child. It was absolutely ENDLESS, though my parents never did it and were completely fine with me as I was. But everyone else had a big problem with me. Constant drama! I have such sympathy for the experience of being just wrong-fitting and not doing it on purpose at all.

And I remember telling a friend in infant school that I really was a boy and there had been a mistake, because that seemed like it must be the answer to all this ruckus. But my mother insisted that the things I liked were girl things, because I, a girl, was doing them. A gift! That belief really saved me. I feel obliged to pass that on. I can't agree that that be taken away from other girls.

When I reached puberty and was still, intractably, both myself and female, I was told I was mad and put in a special school away from other people. And I accepted it for ages - I internalised the belief that I was a very broken, wrong person, though I never hurt any body in my life or 'acted out' or even shouted or anything. I just existed, implacably at odds, in trousers and short hair, fiddling about on my own with a computer. I guess there are only two options for difference: defiance or madness. Criminal or disabled.

It was really only a few years ago, when I figured out a way to work from home that I started thinking... maybe I'm not actually that mad? I mean, there seemed to be no evidence at all. I seem to function perfectly well: I’m not at all depressed, I'm clean and tidy in my person and my house, I work full time, have plenty of friends and a happy relationship, exercise daily, cook from scratch, learn new languages, make art, sing opera, write, knit, volunteer, am a 24/7 carer, get on with my family, do my duty, vote, obey the law, pick up litter, donate, eat my vegetables, recycle, strengthen my core, tap dance… I mean, what more do they want from me, really! I realise now that on some level I relentlessly accumulate petty accomplishments thinking that they will absolve me, hanging them on my objectionable self like a wig and heels, seeing them like credit chips I can exchange for acceptance, though it is obvious that I cannot and they will not. It’s not the answer because I am not the problem.

My brother, who is strikingly similar to me in terms of personality (everyone comments on it), is a fulfilled and highly successful mathematician and it took me until my thirties to realise that really I’m probably not broken, I’m just Shakespeare’s sister.

There are so many "I"s in this post. I feel compelled now to add: I'm sorry!

That is a really good question (typing slowly again, I mean the point about whether privilege was a concept which came through reading). I think my inclination of having privilege being white and educated came at school from having a Muslim friend whose sister was going into an arranged marriage. That was a fairly stark realisation that the opportunity I had for further education was not an option for her. My friend wanted to continue her education, but was not sure if she would be able to (she didn't).

But I don't know how I would have given voice to that recognition as a teenager. But reflecting on it, I think I was more aware that I had opportunities because of my cultural background than I was that I faced barriers because of my sex. Definitely.

Buffy, I'm not having a go. I only ask to understand. I think I do a little more tonight, so thank you.

I think perhaps I was lucky in a way I had never considered - my mum's family is very working class and my dad's very middle. I think I learned very early on about my privileges and just grew up knowing them and the filters that accompany.

I dunno, by listening to other people, women in particular. MN is brilliant for that, I think. And granted, had some experiences that led me to do some serious soul searching that perhaps slightly knocked me off my middle class white woman perch.

Buffy, I promised that I would try and swerve, but I can't really sit on my hands.

My research is filtered through the worldview of an educated white female. But because of philosophical writings, I am aware of this problem

You are aware because of philosophical writings?

I want to do the and thing, but mostly I want to do the . Please tell me you are aware of your filter for other reasons... Or have I misunderstood again?

absolutely kim - it's a (convenient for some) distraction from the really important stuff

I'm not sure if someone mentioned this already but Women's Aid is being attacked on twitter by trans activists included former LibDem councillor Sarah Brown. WA has released this statement:

www.womensaid.org.uk/domestic-violence-press-information.asp?itemid=3283&itemTitle=Statement+on+the+Women%27s+Aid+Transgender+and+Transsexual+Equality+Policies+and+Procedures&section=0001000100150001&preview=1

Anyone with any experience of women's shelters knows the lengths men will take to access shelters.

I went to an all girl's secondary so I don't think I really got it until I left university (and was pregnant by then so...)

I find it very hard to know whether I should be making DD aware that some rules are unfair, or boosting her confidence as much as possible (which makes it difficult to point out things that will disadvantage her?) eldest is 5 so still in the confidence stage I think. But that will change over time. And I have a boy, for whom I need to kill 'man up' or risk his mental health and ability to empathize with others.

That is a bit of a brain dump and also really off-topic, sorry everyone.

Thank you Tewi, I think I am looking for my place in this world, having failed at being a good daughter and doubly at being a wife! Maybe that is why I sound like I am justifying myself, I didn't mean to.

My dd and her female friends know what sexism means and they discuss examples of it. I think part of it is then being assertive enough to challenge inequality, and also, while I am mentioning DD, not only see it as a female issue, but something men take responsibility for too. My DD is ten, so not yet at the stage where peer pressure has shifted to having a boyfriend and how you look. But looking back at when I was ten, I thought boys and girls had equal chances. It would not even have entered my head as an issue. I am not sure if that means we are going forward or backwards though.

For Buffy (in the absence of a 'good egg' picture)