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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Epistemology and breastfeeding information

36 replies

Hazchem · 24/06/2014 22:56

I think this is the right place to post.

So I've been about the type of information/advice we give breastfeeding women. I think it's easiest to give an example.

Some women have fussy babies.
Breastfeeding advocates tend to say it's unlike to be anything in your milk and more likely to be a growth spurt, latching problem. The reason breastfeeding advocates say this is there is little to no evidence from trials that what me eat effects babies in that way. there can be slight changes in breast milk make up but that occurs normally, most "ingredients" tend not to pass through breast milk (cows milk protein is an exception)
However lots of mother advice is don't eat garlic, broccoli, onions ect and these ideas come from somewhere but don't seam to have any evidence behind them.
So is saying changing your diet wont help because the evidence doesn't support that de-privligeing women's knowledge?

Does that make sense. I guess what I'm saying is women's experience do not match up to what we have studied.

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Hazchem · 25/06/2014 07:59

Yes some how guidelines and suggestions become hard facts. When really they are at best a guess. Your baby might be hungry at 7:30 am but equally might not be or maybe hungry much earlier, you need to try and read her cues and work out when she feels hungry is much hard to write and perhaps follow then. babies need to be feed at 7:30am

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MrsCakesPremonition · 25/06/2014 02:26

There is something about new parents in particular (perhaps because it is such a new and overwhelming situation in which every decision feels like life and death) which leaves them looking for "rules".
There seems to be a desire for answers to be very clear cut. Things are either good or bad, and parents don't seem comfortable with "well it depends" or "see how it goes".
So guidance to not allow babies to sleep on their tummies, becomes a "rule" that babies must never be put on their tummies even when awake. Then a few years later there is a campaign to encourage parents to allow babies on their tummies for a little while (20 mins) when they are awake, which some parents interpret as a rule that babies must spend 20mins on their tummy even if it distresses them.

I think something similar happens with food during pregnancy and breastfeeding. People make suggestions, only some of which are grounded in science, and the suggestions are taken as "rules" which nobody wants to break in case something awful happens. Individuals aren't able to differentiate the genuinely useful, scientific advice from the potentially useful, anecdotal advice.

There is a tendency for parenting books, medical professionals, health visitors etc. to distill advice into a list of simple instructions, the assumption being that simple instructions are the easiest way to ensure a message is communicated effectively. But the simple instructions sounds like rules, and are often followed as such, because the average parent in a sleep-deprived and anxious fug will follow the rules as if their baby's life and their own sanity depend on them.

Hazchem · 25/06/2014 02:00

superloud I think the 'some" is fine but I see so much you must not eat Like the ridiculous list above. It is hard thing to do isn't it. Balance the evidence and the things that might not be evidence yet and the nonsense and the extremely rare. I'm wonder I guess how do we as feminists ensure lived experience is still an important form of knowledge while dispelling myths that go on to further harm women's experience.

TeiTetua I think the same has been said about stout. There is, in australia, a brand of lactation cookies which is a bit like that. They are basically flapjacks but you eat five a day and buy them on monthly subscription. It's really very clever marketing because there really isn;t much science to them.

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TeiTetua · 25/06/2014 01:43

Years ago a German woman told me that there's a particular kind of beer that they have there that's favoured by pregnant and breast-feeding women. More recently I met another woman from Germany, this one with a young baby, if she's drinking that magical beer, and she said "Oh, I would if I could get it here. It promotes lactation". So, women's wisdom or successful marketing?

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 25/06/2014 00:52

Sage absolutely reduced my milk supply but I looked at the time and couldn't find any studies on it.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 25/06/2014 00:50

I'm a breastfeeding counsellor - last time I facilitated a class I spoke briefly about the way some babies seem to react to mothers consuming a particular food. I don't know if that means I'm not a breastfeeding advocate though.
We try to be evidence-based but the thing is there aren't going to be many trials on drugs etc for bf mothers because they don't tend to pass ethics criteria.
In my role, I wouldn't want to dismiss what a mother was saying about her own experience. I might offer new information or my own observation in a way that didn't belittle the link she might be making between foods and fussiness.
My reasoning for attributing fussiness to latch etc rather than foods would be the likelihood being greater.
It's entirely possible there would be an allergy, which could be worked out with an elimination diet, but if you go there first before looking at latch etc you miss out the most likely cause.
Does that make sense?

Even if a peer-reviewed paper didn't offer evidence of something...say the fact that strawberries can very occasionally cause allergies (so occasionally that the study would have to be huge to catch it), if a woman stopped eating strawberries and her baby stopped fussing, that would surely be an important link to make?

Some women get so worried about allergies/foods while bf that they deprive themselves of loads of foods. It's better to assume there won't be any allergies, and deal with them if they do come up, rather than the other way round, I think.

It's not that the folk wisdom comes from nowhere - it will probably come from anecdotal evidence of a particular woman finding something affected her baby, or from a few instances.

Hazchem · 25/06/2014 00:29

Opps it wasn't pears it was plums and peaches

It cropped up because this got posted in my mums facebook group.

Epistemology and breastfeeding information
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Hazchem · 25/06/2014 00:25

The sort of Oh "My baby is fussy at the moment crying a bit and wants me, isn't feeding properly" Rather then a particular issue.
Then it seams like whole bunch of well meaning people suggest giving up anything and everything. I've seen charts suggesting not to eat pears while you are breastfeeding.

I've been of the school of thought that suggesting having a heavily restrictive diet makes breastfeeding just too hard so try to politely suggest it's not needed but then I was thinking maybe it's telling women their experiences aren't valid.

On the flip side it's like the lactation cookies and teas you can buy. There just isn't much evidence to suggest they help but is saying the evidence suggest rather then eat biscuits feeding your baby is what actually increases supply undermining women?

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almondcakes · 24/06/2014 23:30

My short answer would be that mothers in different cultures have different sets of ideas. In some situations some of those cultures have to be wrong.

Indian mothers believe that consuming garlic makes breastfeeding easier. This has now been demonstratedby research.

I've never heard people say you shouldn't eat garlic, but if they do they are very likely to be wrong.

But there is always going to be a conflict between hcps and women, because hcps have made huge mistakes historically and are in a position of power.

AnythingNotEverything · 24/06/2014 23:24

I think it depends on the source of the information. Do we (possibly wrongly) think that onions cause wind in babies because that if or nation has been passed on, mother to mother, through the generations, or because a make doctor decreed it so at some point during the 20th century?

For me though, if there's no evidence that the mother's diet affects their milk and therefore heir baby in this way, ending the myth is another step towards removing mother's guilt and self doubt when things aren't going to plan.

almondcakes · 24/06/2014 23:18

Sorry, Hazchem, what do you mean by fussy? Do you mean doesn't want to latch on and is difficult to feed, or do you mean a baby that generally cries a lot and seems unhappy?