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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is fancying a particular sex and not a particular gender bigoted?

165 replies

ArcheryAnnie · 09/06/2014 11:11

Changed name for obvious reasons.

Provoked by this article - which is getting a depressing amount of traction, by a blogger on twitter called stavvers: www.donotlink.com/framed?43198

Short version: if your sexual preferences are linked in any way to the shape of your potential partner's genitals, then you are a bigot. So, eg, if you are straight, you should be attracted to men who have vulvas, and if you are a lesbian, you should be attracted to women with penises. (This isn't saying "it's totes ok to fancy trans lesbians or transmen", which would be cool, it's saying "if you pay any attention to the shape of someone's genitals at all, you are a bigot".) Any way of Doing Sexuality apart from stavvers' way is creepy and weird, and also cissexist and bigoted.

Most of this was aimed at women, naturally. Men's preferences were an afterthought.

In the twitter storm that followed, stavvers and her allies spent a lot of time tee-heeing about how any woman who disagreed with her was probably crap in bed, and all these lesbians who objected it this were prudes who didn't know how to have sex, were probably just holding hands in the dark, and .....dear god it was like a timewarp into the 1950s. Lesbians who choose not to sleep with people - men or women - who have penises are prudish and frigid! How hilarious! How new!

This would all be irrelevant if stavvers was seen as what she is (one of those tedious people who thrive on being "shocking" and "edgy"), but she's got a depressing amount of support for it.

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kim147 · 09/06/2014 18:18

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NotAgainTrevor · 09/06/2014 18:17

It is an interesting question Kim, in a relationship yes most definitely, it has clearly been a massive part of that persons life and I would feel betrayed and lied to.

One night stand however, it is more sticky, as hook ups are taken on face value. The case of the young transman who was prosecuted I believe hinged on him not having had genital surgery, so penetrated the girls with something that they had not given permission for hence it being a crime. But why should a transwomen be required to say more about herself than anyone else? When you randomly hook up they could be anyone. People can say that would want to know but do they have the right to?

What would most concern me in a random hook up with the man not knowing the woman was trans is if he guessed things were not as they seemed. She would be in a very vulnerable position and could subjected to violence or even murdered.

FloraFox · 09/06/2014 18:14

If I met a man and was attracted to him (and single and interested), I would assume he had a functioning penis without giving it much thought.

If it turns out this is a transman, whether there had been surgery or not wouldn't affect how I would feel. I wouldn't date a transman (being a straight woman) just as I wouldn't date a homophobe or an MRA, even if I was attracted to them physically and the "penis" was fully-functioning (unlikely). Their world view would be too different from mine.

There are plenty of guys who are physically attractive but I would not date them, for many different reasons. Transmen don't get a special pass. This discussion about dating trans people seems to assume women are jumping into bed with every man or woman they find attractive and therefore it's unfair for trans people that they don't get their fair share. Although, to be fair to transmen, I've never seen them do this.

It's such a male-entitled attitude that if women are having sex with some people, they should be having sex with me . Like Elliot Rodger, PUAs and loads of men looking for pity shags that women get used to dealing with.

DoctorHfuhruhurr · 09/06/2014 18:12

I hope you find someone Kim, but you've already agreed that not wanting to have sex with someone doesn't make you a bigot, so you clearly don't agree with the blogger.

Putting the onus on other people to find you attractive is exactly the sense of entitlement that the Isla Vista guy had.

MrsCakesPremonition · 09/06/2014 18:08

Of course it is quite possible to be a bigot and still sexually desire that which you hate and that isn't very healthy for either partner.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/06/2014 18:08

How important is sex and genitalia in a relationship?

Depends on the people involved and depends on the relationship! For some it won't be important, and for some it will be. And both of those circs should be fine.

stavvers eternal problem is narcissism: she applies her thinking and her reactions as a one-size-fits-all that everyone should follow.

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kim147 · 09/06/2014 18:05

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wannaBe · 09/06/2014 17:59

"And of course - should post - op trans people disclose they are post - op?" of course they should. and tbh it would be impossible not to, how else would they explain e.g. performance issues etc... after all a post op trans man cannot perform in the same way as a typical man, for instance. As sex is important it's not something you can withhold really is it? And that's before you get to the issue of things like children and whether you as a couple might want any in the future and so on.

kim147 · 09/06/2014 17:59

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ArcheryAnnie · 09/06/2014 17:57

What do you think of stavvers post, Kim?

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kim147 · 09/06/2014 17:56

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wannaBe · 09/06/2014 17:55

"If they had had surgery - but you still knew they were trans, would that affect how you felt?" yes.

AnyFucker · 09/06/2014 17:55

This is just ridiculous

it is simply only one step further from this to say I am discriminating against Halitosis Harold in Accounts for not responding to his inept sexual overtures.

My choice who I have sex with, how to, and in what physical and emotional form that person identifies themselves as

the rest is simply punishing women for their agency

ArcheryAnnie · 09/06/2014 17:53

I don't know, Kim, as it hasn't yet happened to me. I do retain the absolute right, though, with anyone I am planning to go to bed with, to stop and walk away at any point, for any reason. And that includes discovering that the physical configuration of the person I am attracted to is not the physical configuration i was expecting.

I might be fine with it, who knows. But I might not be fine with it, and that should be OK, too.

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CaptChaos · 09/06/2014 17:53

If they had had surgery - but you still knew they were trans, would that affect how you felt?

Interesting question.

For me it would be more about the 'surprise' genitals aspect. So, if I knew that a trans person who I fancied had had surgery, then it wouldn't stop me fancying them, but if they sprung it on me in the middle of proceedings in a sort of, 'yes! Yes! By the way, did you know that I'm post operative trans?' style of things, it would definitely put a dampener on things. For me, it would feel like a lie.

DoctorTwo · 09/06/2014 17:51

The word 'attractive' is missing from that sentence. Blush

DoctorTwo · 09/06/2014 17:49

So if I don't find a certain hermaphrodite or trans woman I'm a bigot? Riiiiight. Hmm

MrsCakesPremonition · 09/06/2014 17:48

I don't have to have sex with anyone I don't want to.
I have the right to withdraw my consent to having sex at any time and for any reason. This includes the last minute discovery that someone is not emotionally, physically or mentally who I thought they were.
I shouldn't be made to feel that I should be having sex with someone out of guilt.

kim147 · 09/06/2014 17:48

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ArcheryAnnie · 09/06/2014 17:45

Well, indeed.

So much of this bullshit is based on a weird, topsy-turvey inconsistency. It's bigotry to assume anything about anyone else's identity in any way, shape or form, unless you want to punish women on the internet, in which case you are absolutely entitled to assume they identify as cis and as het.

It also feeds into the "we must explain ourselves and our histories at every step in order to earn the right to an opinion" trope that is prevalent now. So if you don't want to come out, even if it's risky for you - too bad.

Fuckery indeed.

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AnyFucker · 09/06/2014 17:35

cishet ?

what fuckery is this ?

ArcheryAnnie · 09/06/2014 17:33

Ah, FloraFox, but she was thinking of the cheque and the exposure not in the best mental health that night when she took a gig with the BBC alongside Bindel, so we have to forgive her, otherwise abelism!

Other women's mental health distress, on the other hand, are just irrelevant sadfeelz or white women's nonsense (even when they aren't white) or cishet tears (even when they aren't cishet).

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CaptChaos · 09/06/2014 17:27

benefit of the doubt

I kind of get where she might have been coming from. If she is talking about a group of people who hang out together, who have never seen each other naked, then yeah, it might be a bit odd to be wondering about the contents of their underwear.

removes benefit of the doubt

However, in certain circumstances the contents of a person's underwear is very important. In a rape crisis centre, in a high school's girl's locker room or boy's locker room come to that or in my bed. Telling me that I am a bigot for only wanting the genitals I was expecting or suggesting that I am unimaginative in bed if I then refuse to go any further with the surprise genitals makes a person look like a prick. And a rape apologist.

This has fuck all to do with TERF. It is about consent, and this female's desire to dick around with women's ability to feel comfortable in NOT consenting to sex with 'surprise' genitals.

FloraFox · 09/06/2014 17:26

I think she's extreme Bill but she's had some mainstream exposure. She got herself in a knot by trying to no-platform Julie Bindel from public speaking then appearing on Radio 4 with her.

I'm all for giving people like this a broader platform so that the nonsense can be seen for what it is.

ArcheryAnnie · 09/06/2014 17:24

I've come across her type before: young; middle-class and well-educated but quite sheltered; once she's discovered politics she imagines everyone else is as ignorant as she once was; thinks her experiences are the template for everyone else's. And now delights in being more-radical-than-thou, more edgy-than-thou, thinks the ability to "shock" (yawn) is an acceptable substitute for actually making an appreciable difference in the world. And she's found a little group of like-minds who she imagines are this revolutionary circle she'd been looking for, so she follows their every word slavishly as she doesn't want to be thrown out of the cool kids club.

(Yes, she's extreme. And a screaming hypocrite. And the absolute king of mimeophants.)

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