Is fancying a particular sex and not a particular gender bigoted?

There are Trans men who get pregnant through PIV and give birth to babies. I would have thought being pregnant and giving birth is a pretty big reminder that you have a female body, but it doesn't stop some doing it.

kim187 - plenty transwomen have fully functioning penises and refer to them as strapless strap ons.

kim - might it be that some people are happy with having penises but perhaps feel revulsion to things like growing facial hair or whatever? I know I am coming at this from a perspective that gender is a construct and this makes me less likely to see why people would reject a coherent set of sex characteristics, but is this impossible?

Well, I can understand not going through surgery. It's not great at the moment, is it?

I can believe some people are happy with the idea and, obviously, more power to their arms.

Doesn't change the basic issue that no group of women is going to be attracted to someone purely because that person insists they are bigots. And I agree, the idea they should be is based in this idea of women as 'receptors' of sex who are passive.

Thing is, though, while I myself like cock (sorry, I have no idea how not to be crude on this thread), I can believe some would find it offputting. It's not a pretty part of the human anatomy, is it?

That said I do agree that it might be other things that mattered as much.

What I think is a fundamental problem here is that we are not - any of us - encouraged to believe that sexuality might be something we can trust our instincts on. I really notice this with very homophobic heterosexual men - the idea they might find anything taboo to be sexy (even if it's something really basic like the revelation that women do grow hair on their legs!) is so offensive, they don't reject it on a personal level (which would be fine) but on a structural level, which pushes everyone else to repress any instinct to find that intrinsically sexy.

kim I would say part of the problem is an expectation by some that the penis would be used. Stavvers definitely isn't ruling this out when she makes her claims about bigotry.

In DonkeySkin 's link above, there is a quote from a transwoman complaining about being "shut off" from PIV and how women "not even considering how having my penis inside you is not like having a man's penis inside you" hurts.

The thing is that lesbians who don't want to have sex with people with penises are not saying that people with penises who identify as women can't do that. They aren't saying that people with penises can't have sex with anyone ever. All they are saying is that they personally don't want to have sex with people with penises.

I can understand that some trans people with penises will find that hard to hear, you know, that a particular person doesn't want to have sex with them. I can even understand why it might make a trans person with a penis upset. What I don't understand is how personal choice in something as intimate as sex automatically becomes bigotry when it relates to trans* people with penises.

I have fancied some people who haven't wanted to have sex with me. Does that mean they are bigoted toward me? Can I start a campaign?

Oh, but everyone is naturally attracted to large breasts, right?

There does seem to be an assumption that women should be attracted to whatever's convenient for society, doesn't there?

Are men (or women) who are attracted to large breasts socially influenced? Possibly (leaving aside any evo psych...). Are they bigoted? Err, no.

This is a really binary view of the world, isn't it? (I know that's a bit of an obvious statement in the context, but bear with me). It's as if everyone who is attracted to women-people is attracted to them in exactly the same way, so bodies shouldn't matter any more. There must be millions of women who are attracted to women, also quite like penises, yet don't necessarily fancy every single woman and/or person with a penis they come across.

As an aside, I find it odd this debate is always framed in terms of lesbians' choices. Lesbians aren't generally into penises. Plenty of women are into both penises and women.

ProfNic but it's the attitudes of women like us that cause men to attack and murder transwomen. Or something. According to twitter.

I blocked her because I didn't particularly want her retweeted into my timeline bullying people. It's a pity when someone who obviously has a lot of passion and campaigning energy gets it into her head that the best way to do it is through shouting abuse online at people she disagrees with.

And this thread has reminded me that I unfollowed stavvers, after following her for a while, when I grew tired of her rants about cis women's privilege.

No thank you is far more reasonable than I'd be able to manage, I think.

I have never in my life heard of a lesbian murdering a trans woman for having a surprise penis so the "gay panic" defense doesn't really apply here. Also post operative trans women don't have vaginas. They have surgical approximations of vaginas so it would be perfectly reasonable for a lesbian to say no thank you.

No more bigoted than only fancying men who are taller than you or not being sexually attracted to someone with ginger hair or an exuberant personality.

I was going to post that link DonkeySkin too. It's a great piece.

I agree with ezinma in that who we are sexually attracted to is, in part at least, a social construct that should be challenged. However lesbians are already challenging it by being attracted to women and not going down the heteronormative route.

What stavvers is suggesting is to actually turn that around trying to get women to buy back into heteronormativity again. As other people have pointed out it is only women who exclude men who are being targeted. The penis is apparently that important it musn't be excluded.

DonkeySkin that's a good post. Ally Fogg really is a dick. I hadn't seen his witterings about "forced penetration" being at the same rate as rapes. How come he doesn't get called out more for being the MRA he is. He toadies up to fun fems like Laurie Penny as cover. Ick.

This seems apt