Is fancying a particular sex and not a particular gender bigoted?

That kind of sexual preference may be bigoted, but isn't necessarily. I agree that it is telling that, while (born) men are allowed immutable sexual tastes, (born) women aren't.

Kim, Freerangeeggs said: 'Part of me thinks it is a little bit bigoted to rule out an entire group of people, for anything.'

Surely a whole sex counts as an entire group of people?

I've seen loads of conversations where transwomen talk about how they are only attracted to (cos they're permitted to say...) natal women/born women etc - it's nodded along with.
Whereas women can't say this - or if we do, we can't tie it in with our sexual orientation.
Like FloraFox says, it's policing women's sexuality and behaviour yet again.

Oh and being bisexual isn't inclusive enough. It's queer pansexual or nothing, I'm afraid.

You know what? It would be a fuck of a lot easier for women to accept this shit if trans people started off with men. Women have been pressured and guilted into sex and men demanded justifications from women for their boundaries since forever. How about trans people who want to have sex with men get them to accept that it is bigoted to write off trans people as sexual partners and thenaybe we can talk about whether women are bigots for settings their own sexual boundaries.

Do you think lesbians and gays are bigots, freerange?

So you consider everybody bigoted who doesn't self-define as bisexual? Surely that's the logical outcome of your post?

I haven't read the whole thread (I know, I know, I'm sorry and I will but under pressure of time). Part of me thinks it is a little bit bigoted to rule out an entire group of people, for anything. I've never fancied a transgender person before, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility. I've never fancied a girl before, but I suppose it could happen and that would be fine. There are patterns in my preferences, of course, like anyone else (I'm partial to big gruff men with beards, like my DH) but I don't think I can state categorically that I would never be attracted to any feature in particular. I'm attracted to people as individuals, not as the sum of a bunch of parts.

Gender being how you feel in your head

In the academic feminist theory from which all this controversy stems (partly) "gender" tends to refer to the socially conditioned gendered roles people feel coerced by patriarchy to play.

Yes, I think so too. But are they issues of sex/body dysphoria? Or gendered stereotypes?

Seems to me that's the crucisl thing.

But then I was brought up amongst drag queens, most of whom are/were gay men, who liked to dress up & parody women (another thread right there) but did not want to BE women, nor have other people treat them as women. THey were men, interested in men sexually, and usually pretty secure in that identity.

Oh, I'm not an expert on that! I've personally used the term "transsexual" to refer to people who have or are undergoing sex reassignment (pre- and post-operatively). I gather from one acquaintance who did this that she had to live as a woman successfully for a period of time, plus hormone therapy, plus undergo extensive psychological testing & therapy, plus wait for ages for the actual surgery to be available.

Not for the faint-hearted at all, and a bit differnt, so it seems to me, from the current queer activists who I gather use the term "transgender."

But my point about the current debates (in addition to all the points made on this thread already about the same old same old woman-blaming, woman-silencing stuff) is that it seems to me that you can be a non-stereotypical non-masculine man, without having to become a woman, with or without a penis.

Maybe I'm hopelessly idealistic & naive.

I also know that the anecdotes of a couple of MtF friends are not data.

Oh sorry, meant to add ... (as if I hadn't written enough of an essay) that isn't there an identified radfem (now vilified as a TERF) who argues that a lot of people who identify as transgender (as opposed to transsexual) actually just want NOT to conform to the embedded and socialised gendered stereotypes of required masculine & feminine behaviour.

This seems to me to make sense: just because a boy plays with dolls or likes wearing a dress does not mean he has gender dysphoria/or is transsexual.

Is that a viable point?

One aspect of lying to children that they are the opposite sex because they are gender non-conforming is how are they going to deal with their sexuality as they become adults

Thanks for a really interesting thread. I came to it because I've seen quite a bit of TERF-outing and criticism on my Twitter, and it's such a new thing to me (old 1970s/80s Women's Lib feminist -- hell, I was even in a consciousness-raising group in the late 70s, I'm that old). I guess in my extreme moments, I'd identify with radical feminist aspects of feminism/s. But I'm also very much aware of the Butler stuff (gender as performative, and sex not necessarily fixed).

I've worked with a couple of MtF people, when they've been both pre & post-op. Both identified as lesbian, but both had a gender-reassignment operation. The new emerging difference between the terms transgender & transsexual is interesting in this respect.

A lot of the TERF stuff is actually a misunderstanding of the complexity of BUtler's arguments, and also an emptying out of queer theory of any kind of politics. It gives few tools for analysing patriarchy as a STRUCTURE and sees gender as a set of personal choices a la neo-liberal post-modernism. All these young 20 somethings thinking they're being political and radical, hmmmmm

It seems to me that what we have is a lot of rather privileged young people (oh writing that makes me feel old) with a fundamental misunderstanding of theory around the DIFFERENCE or distinction between the terms "sex" and "gender" who've been educated in a post-neoliberal world (Fredric Jameson's good on po-mo as a symptom and tool of late global capitalism, not its destruction) and who think that if they want to break out of the socialisation of masculinity or femininity then they have to claim the opposite sex identity, rather than collectively work to destabilise gender identities which seem to coerce people into particular lives, styles, and behaviours.

And the fact that a number of vocal transgender activists seem to want to keep certain attributes of both male sex and masculine gendered behaviour (basic misunderstandings about women's rights over their own bodies, anyone?) I find very unsettling.

It all seems like another version of mansplaining to me.

Yes Flora.
It's reminding me of that thing where Julie Burchill got it in the neck for saying women were being encouraged to have an unattainable bodyshape, that of a 'Brazilian transsexual'.
I was thinking about it recently in terms of how much shit is said by men about women and how little crap they get for it, compared with the almighty row over Burchill. Women's speech is so much more policed than men's. It's fascinating.
However, in the light of what you've said, I wonder if she was also not allowed to say it because it was a reminder that there is still a physical difference between women and transwomen, when we're supposed to pretend there's no difference at all.

There is a huge amount of these battles that are about validation of womanhood and/or attractiveness (usually very pornified or male gaze oriented). I'm not sure if this is the autogynophiliac aspect or a general lack of awareness of how life is for women who don't meet the required beauty standards. One aspect of lying to children that they are the opposite sex because they are gender non-conforming is how are they going to deal with their sexuality as they become adults. If a girl grows up being told she is a boy, how hard will it be to come to terms with the fact that very few girls will want to have a relationship with her? I think these poor children have a great deal of trouble ahead of them.

One link is no longer working, but on the other Lily Cade says:

What Chelsea asked me to do was to spend my capital, my energy, the trust of my fanbase that I have built up over six years in porn, to fight for her cause: her cause of proving she is attractive

This whole Lily Cade thing is still going on. I'm really impressed by her candor and the way that she stands strong against this.

therealpornwikileaks.com/lily-cade-gender-warfare-sexual-entitlement/

www.lilycade.com/2014/06/why-i-went-to-war/

Vs the tumblr blog ChelseaPoe.tumblr.com which seems out of touch with reality

Despite all the assertions of great principles being at stake, there is something so petulant in the transactivist stance on this (which is not to minimise how worrying it is).

To demand to be accepted is one thing. To demand to be desired quite another. You can imagine how scornful the reaction would be if mainstream women did this.

Colour me shocked, Flora.