Casting a woman as a transwoman

"There is something camp about straight Northern culture that makes trans women who are very glammed up 'sexy' in the same way that other Northern women in similar clothes on a night out in Blackpool are."

I see what you are saying and I'm visualizing the glamour model look here- a look I as a straight(ish) woman find very unsexy

"Dysfunctional, if you are accepting that a trans woman is a woman post and pre op, there is no male body. There is a woman's body"

I think this is where i get confused. If you are already in a woman's body why would you need an OP. I thought it was the sex and gender being different that made them trans. Sorry if this offends anyone on here.

There is a market, but I think I saw something a bit different to that market. It was a working class straight karaoke bar in Blackpool ( that sounds really stereotypical, but it was). There is something camp about straight Northern culture that makes trans women who are very glammed up 'sexy' in the same way that other Northern women in similar clothes on a night out in Blackpool are.

It doesn't translate into other settings and other groups. It would be harder to be a 'sexy' trans librarian or a 'sexy' trans girl next door. People's expectation of sexy trans woman most closely fits with sexy Northern girl on a night out in Blackpool, so trans women are seen as less trans in that situation.

I think I'm going around in circles here.

Dysfunctional, if you are accepting that a trans woman is a woman post and pre op, there is no male body. There is a woman's body.

If you are suggesting that the person had a penis and no breasts and then had no penis and breasts, then surely a. Jared Leto's penis isn't appearing in the film and b. a woman actor's breasts could be minimised to play the role in the earlier part, just as Jared Leto presumably had prosthetic breasts later in the film.

"The issue isn't that they're not seen as sexy but that are seen as sexy in a very particular way"

I agree there is, I believe, a market (sorry horrible word) for transwomen amongst some hetero men

Gah, I'm going to 'not all men' myself.

I should say - I think there are some men who are violently angry about the idea they might fancy transwomen. And I do think there is a worry amongst people who make films that someone who is trans might not be seen as sexy. I'll try to dig up an interview I read about Orange is the New Black that talks about this.

I agree with you about 'sexy in a very particular way'.

But I think all of this goes back to the fact that there are some men who are fundamentally wankers, and their sense of self would be very disturbed if they fancied someone who was trans. It's similar to the 'eugh, I found out this footballer is gay, now I cannot support his team' bollocks - it's not liking people to be outside the category the patriarchy puts them in.

"I think it is very different with the Jared Leto casting, because he is a man and he is playing a trans woman"

But perhaps there is a case for a male actor playing a pre-op trans woman otherwise you are having to dress the female actor as a man (hardly authentic either as she doesn't have a male body) but then you'd have to use a woman to play post-op.

No, you are not coming across as rude! I'm just trying not to be confusing.

LRD, I don't know men don't find trans women sexy. My only direct experience of it was being in a straight club that a lot of women (who most people would assume to be trans) frequented, and they were getting a huge amount of male attention. The issue isn't that they're not seen as sexy but that are seen as sexy in a very particular way.

I take Kim's point about older trans women not being shown in the media, They don't fit into that sexy category, but then neither do other older women generally.

Hey, no, don't apologize! It's probably me. And if I'm coming across as rude I'm sorry.

And sorry LRD and everyone else, that I'm making such a mess of explaining and following what different people are saying. I don't mean to seem argumentative and repetitive.

I think it is very different with the Jared Leto casting, because he is a man and he is playing a trans woman.

I mean, regardless of your position on gender identity, the fact that there are men out there who think transwomen cannot be sexy tells you something about how those men understand their relationship to women, doesn't it?

Oh, I follow.

Yes, I don't think I'm so fussed about those aspects. But in her OP, she made the point about people not seeing transwomen as sexy, and to my mind that is both an issue to do with whether or not people in one group can play people in another group, and also an issue to do with the significance society attaches to each group. Society expects only women born women are the sex class, IMO.

I think it is possible to feel uncomfortable about the same issue from different theoretical perspectives, though, which is presumably what she and I are doing.

Yes Calmet, but I am assuming that the OP does think trans women are women.

Almond, depends whether you think a MtoF is a woman.

I'm not sure what all the different theories are, and wouldn't claim to understand a lot more than you, but the ideas that

a. gender is determined by gender identity
and
b. trans women are women

are from queer theory.

And I assume that is what the OP believes.

I think what is confusing me is that you are talking about it not mattering whether a character is played by a man or a woman, or a black or white person - gender and race blindness which is all interesting. But the OP is talking about whether a woman can play a woman from a different group, which isn't about being gender blind, because both have the same gender - woman.

blogs.indiewire.com/bent/10-trans-actors-who-werent-offered-jared-letos-role-in-dallas-buyers-club-20140220

Article on this very topic

I agree a MtoF should play a MtoF.

Yes, I know it's not what you're saying. It's what I was saying, as a response to you - and I don't see that it has anything to do with queer theory? I am not a big theorist, though, so you're likely seeing things I'm not seeing.

That isn't what I'm saying though LRD. Although I'm not objecting to it - Cate Blanchett played Bob Dylan which was great.

I am saying that a black actor should be able to play a black character from any cultural background, and a woman actor should be able to play a woman character from any background.

I am not arguing for colour blindness or gender blindness. I think it is a big problem that characters are written who have no racialised aspects to them, because people's lives are racialised, and there is no netural - the neutral is really just culturally white.

It may be better for characters to be written as gender neutral, and the nearest is perhaps Purdy in the Avengers, written as a male character but then played by a woman. But the actual reality of women's lives as women is written out, which may be better than the reality being written badly I suppose.

On a separate note, Carlotta is very beautiful. Few women from any background are very beautiful. There are very few trans women and so very few trans women actors and so very few beautiful trans women actors. The likelihood of finding any female actor who is very beautiful and bears a striking resemblence to Carlotta must have been slim, if narrowed down to only trans women actors, incredibly difficult I would have thought. The actor chosen is very beautiful and looks very much like Carlotta.

chopsy - I just have a slight issue with it, because loads of people are not NT without being 'cis', aren't they?

I admit, I'm uncomfortable with 'cis' because I associate it with being reasonably content with the body you were born with, and I think many women are not that, without necessarily being trans.

I know there's an issue of not having enough shorthand explanations though, so I don't mean to have a go - I just don't see that it's a neuro thing?

Olympia Dukakis was inspired as Mrs Madrigal.