Is woo belief more prevalent among women?

Mmm. I'm fine with 'claiming back' - or just claiming - actual knowledge. That's why I included midwifery as an example of something that has a genuine history of being better-known by women. But not everything that's claimed is like that.

(Male) doctors have at various times claimed that midwifery is 1) witchcraft/nonsense practised by uneducated women or 2) terribly important knowledge to be studied by men. But we can all agree there is a genuine body of knowledge there, and that most of the time, it has been female-dominated knowledge.

When people start telling me that they're into herbal healing because they draw on the knowledge of centuries of wise women, I think we're on shakier ground. There are herbal remedies that work, but for much of history, they were seen as serious medicine and studied by men. Women taking up the tail-ends of those herbal remedies (the ones that haven't become non-alternative medicine) and seeing themselves as proud preservers of a feminine tradition, is a crock.

LRD, why do you think that is? Do you think there is a reason for it in the context of different societies?

It seems to me that seeing the BVM is about a personal relationship with a deity (and obviously there are lots of other ones like shamanic visions and revelations and I suppose alien abduction). Why are they sometimes more associated with women and other times with men?

OP, I think this is a really interesting topic that I'd not thought much about before.

Just because I think teenagers in the 90s early 2000s were very woo orientated. Sabrina the Teenage Witch/Charmed/Buffy/The Craft all that sort of thing

squishy how old are you?

lrd I've seen some things before about how during the rise of medcalising births, the doctors were trying to sell midwifery as basically witch craft... posters and things which were both sexist and racist if I remember correctly.

I think it might be one of those situations where it would be legitimate to "claim it back"

This is more specific to the states obviously but becoming more relevant in the UK

Agree with Cote and Tondeleyo.
I wonder if sometimes it could be a power/control thing? I remember the time in my life when I was most "woo" was in my early teens - the same age at which I felt the most disempowered and confused. I was rational and cynical yet there was a part of me that was desperate for witchcraft/supernaturalness to be true. (I always knew, rationally, that it wasn't though )

That's really not what the post you responded to said is it though. That post saw the irony in two intelligent women she knows turning to "woo" and then made excuses for why they would do it. You basically just implied there are loads of incredibly stupid sahms wandering around.

And I'd be very surprised if you knew 40 sahms who are obsessed with woo. I'm a sahm and the sahms I know are all vehement atheist except me who is just a very lazy one

almond - but then, that's historically subject to change. There are fashions in these things. I think that's how you can tell it's not intrinsic to one or other gender to respond a particular way - it's just that sometimes, having visions of the Virgin Mary dovetails neatly with society's idea of what is 'feminine' and sometimes it dovetails with what is 'masculine'.

I think it's just one of those 'socially acceptable' things. Conspiracy theory sounds all masculine, man-against-the-system. Woo, I associate with pretty colours and tinkly music and so on. I think they're just neatly gender-delineated versions of bullshit.

Something that really bothers me is that women (including some feminists) tend to believe that they're recovering ancient female knowledge, or traditional female folk wisdom. I know that some aspects of healing or medicine have probably always been female dominated (eg., nursing) and others often (midwifery). But herbal medicine is something that, back when it was non-alternative, was taken seriously by men, and studied by men. I know people who're very invested in claiming they're reconnecting with women's closeness to nature or women's ancient herb lore ... it really pisses me off. Not that they believe it, but that they're using a myth to make themselves feel better about being female.

I know lots of men who belvie in ghosts and in aliens visiting earth (but that's just science)

And I can. What's with the face?

Someone said it is the pressure of high-powered jobs etc making women turn to woo but I know loads of SAHMs into woo.

Should I have lied because this is the FWR topic?

The woo takes on different forms, whether organised or not.

Female Christians are more likely to be having a personal relationship with God or seeing visions of or talking to the Virgin Mary. Men are more likely to be coming up with a vast explanation as to why their denomination is superior to others, why some other denomination is in a conspiracy out to get there. So the most popular ideas traditionally will be things like the devil - various forces are conspiring against you with the active participation of various evil doing humans and there is a supernatural elements. It has a broad appeal combining both elements of woo - caring and power conspiracy.

The same with non-organised woo like the paranormal. Aliens and werewolves are equally implausible, but men are far more interested in seeing aliens because there is a whole conspiracy theory around them.

The irrationality is the same in both. The difference is that using woo to heal people or develop a relationship with God is about caring, while conspiracies are about power.

The other issue is that women don't need to imagine that there is system in place that operates to keep them in a subordinate position.

For every financially independent woman in a high-power job you know who is a woo fan, I can show you 20 SAHMs.

The pope is still a man right?

Sorry, I'm BF and on iPad at the same time so that isn't very well written, excuse the syntax!

I know you are talking about women generally, rather than feminists but...

I think there are certain alliances between some "branches" of feminism (especially second wave) and between "woo". Wicca, herbalism, alternative medicine, natural childbirth, spiritual beliefs etc have been taken up in opposition to patriarchal institutions such as the church, science, medicine and law. In much woo, "feminine" values are praised and women are often leaders (the wise woman trope).

It is ultimately a false dichotomy but I can see the attraction and I think there is attraction, particularly coming from the point of view as a sceptic AND a feminist who has witnessed the misogyny erupt in the atheist and skeptic community.

Some of the criticism directed at antivaccine campaigners is quite misogynist in tone for example. So I can understand why woo-ish organisations offer a welcome environment for women. I don't like it and the science community needs to get its house in order regarding STEM education, inclusivity and promoting women.

Men perhaps go for a different kind of woo - not so much fairies/crystals/guardian angels, more conspiracy stuff (the guy fixing my drains has been telling me about evil chemtrails…), lucky socks to make sure their team wins, completely useless (but very high tech-looking) gadgets which supposedly detect bombs or cancer etc.

Well I suppose homeopathy can be disproved, but believing in fairies, angels, Goddesses etc - all big woo business - is no different (to me) than believing in God.

Different point to the OP, though, I guess.

For every financially independent woman in a high-power job you know who is a woo fan, I can show you 20 SAHMs.

Belief in woo is quite different than belief in a deity, though.

Re God, there is no way of knowing one way or another.

Re homeopathy, for example, we know that it can't work (no valid mechanism of action) and it doesn't work (studies, Cochrane reviews, meta-analyses have all shown it doesn't work better than placebo).

What Laurie said. Spot on.

Funnily enough, the most 'woo' friends I have are both high powered career women and single mums, so both really 'out there on their own' in the world. I think the woo stuff is their way of chilling out and accessing a different pace and focus in life.

One of them is into homeopathy, chakra healing, reiki etc. The other is a white witch. I listen with interest and dont judge. I find it no more or less rational than religion, and I wouldnt dream of telling my Christian/Jewish/Muslim etc friends that their beliefs are a pile of shite.

I know quite a few men who are a lot woo - crystal wands, reiki, orgones, power in water and all that stuff. But it does seem to be all the hippy, alt lifestyle stuff. They are a weird bunch! and make a lot of money out of it

Shit that last bit sounded snippy

Sorry Sisters

Yes it is but I certainly don't blame women for it.

I see more women for therapy than men (obviously) as more shit happens to women in society.

They're struggling to find the answers and process just how crap their life is so many of them will look at self soothing woo to cope - which isn't harmful most of the time.

I notice that women who adopt a cause and tap into their inner rage do better emotionally as they get to express their feelings (particularly if they adopt feminist causes) than ones who just take up windcatchers et al

But that's a small pool and only anecdotal

In general it's all ways to cope with the difficulty of being a woman in a patriarchal world

And I hate the idea that other women criticise them for it - no different to witch hunting IMO. Or make them out to be silly air heads.

But I'm a bit of a fan of sisterhood tbh

I think religion is different because of widespread indoctrination from an early age.

There is no such indoctrination for woo, yet seemingly reasonable adults one day decide to believe them. Mostly women, unfortunately.