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Original poster

Meaningful consent?

86 replies

calmet · 30/05/2014 22:26

Like many young women, when I started having boyfriends, I wanted to have sex. But like most in the UK, I was taught that sex= penis in vagina sex (PIV).

In reality, there are many ways of having sex. But if you are taught that having sex means having PIV, the you accept if you want sex, PIV is an automatic part of it.

So do women who think thsi meangfully consent to PIV? I don't think I did. To meaningfully consent I would have to know I had the choice of having sex with a man, and not having PIV. To meaningfully consent, I would have to be able to have a boyfriend who accepted it if I said I did not want to have PIV.

You can't meaningfully consent, if you don't know you have a choice, and if you can't say no.

OP posts:
scallopsrgreat · 31/05/2014 09:13

Your post resonates with me too Basil. It's really quite shit when you think about it.

And YY to expectations nowadays Really. And to discussions of oral sex being all about blow jobs. In fact a blow job was considered a way of not having to have PIV sex. All about the male orgasm isn't it.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 31/05/2014 09:01

I long for the days when PIV sex was considered the be all and end all.

Most teen girls are being expected to submit to anal sex now, aren't they. I think the more "options" for sex that girls have the more ways they will be violated. Sorry. Bit miserable, but that is really how I feel. In school, I remember the constant talks of blow jobs, I don't think I can think of one even discussing oral sex on females.

I also think many bloke will prefer to receive oral sex without a condom, which girls will be pressured in to

AskBasil · 31/05/2014 07:25

Most of my sexual experiences when I first started having sex, were not meaningfully consensual.

Most of the time, once I'd started kissing, touching and caressing a man, although I didn't want it to go any further than that, I resigned myself to the fact that that's how it was going to go and I didn't feel I had that much choice in the matter.

I also felt that I didn't have the right to have a choice in the matter - that if I didn't want this man to penetrate me, then I shouldn't have kissed, caressed him etc.

We are very much given the message that penetration is part of the deal. Any other sexual activity comes with PIV attached so if you don't want the PIV, don't do the rest.

When for many women, it's the rest that is the main pleasure. The clitoris isn't inside the vagina.

Original poster
calmet · 31/05/2014 00:45

That is why I talked about meaningful consent, rather than rape.

Yes most first sexual experiences don't include PIV, but they are not seen by most as having full sex. Full sex is usually in the UK, seen to mean PIV. So consumation of a relationship is only possible with PIV.

OP posts:
MatildaWhispers · 31/05/2014 00:07

I don't agree. I have had sex that I did not want, that I said no to, but it happened anyway. This was in a relationship, other times I said yes because I knew if I said no it would happen anyway. To me, that constituted meaningless consent.

I don't get how the lack of choice means all PIV sex is rape. Surely that introduces a sense that there must be different 'levels' of rape, which we know there should not be?

PacificDogwood · 30/05/2014 23:48

I am not sure that I fully agree with you.

Many first sexual experiences do not include PIV and are surely sexual.

IMO giving full consent to PIV involves self-esteem rather than facts/information.

I understand and can follow the RadFem argument that all PIV sex = rape but I don't agree with it.

MaryShelley · 30/05/2014 23:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
calmet · 30/05/2014 23:35

No, I wanted sex. But I was taught like most women that PIV=sex. So if you want sex, you have PIV. That is what sex education teaches teenagers.

And how many men would stay with women who refused to ever have PIV? A small number, but I doubt most would.

So if PIV is expected, do women really have the opportunity to say no to it in a relationship?

OP posts:
BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 30/05/2014 23:31

Sorry, slightly OT.

Did you feel you couldn't say no to PIV? I know it's the norm but, like Cailin, I don't see it as inherently harmful to me, though I understand the politics of that position.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 30/05/2014 23:28

This is where I got narked on the casual sex/contraception failure thread. Lots of "well, it's not realistic to expect a full discussion of views on MAP etc before casual sex". No acknowledgement that there's a really fucking easy way for it not to be an issue and that's to reach orgasm, hopefully mutually, some other way.

CailinDana · 30/05/2014 23:20

Many radical feminists would say all PIV sex is rape, not so much because of the lack of knowledge/choice, but because of the inherent dangers that PIV poses to women and the fact that a person can't meaningfully consent to be hurt, e.g you can't shoot a person and then say they wanted to be shot.

I struggle with this viewpoint although I can see its validity. The same goes for your viewpoint. I am curious to hear others' views on it.