Meaningful consent?

Just marking my place. Will come back later

This thread is making me think that I need to have a very frank and open discussion with my dd before she goes to secondary school.

She is going to be so embarrassed but I have to don't I? Is 12 too young to discuss this?

I had no idea anal sex was now something teens were expected to do?!

Sorry, not strictly in response to your thread OP.... I think that I have always assumed that once it gets going, PIV will be an inevitable conclusion, I have never felt pushed into it well not with my DH but it always seems to head in that direction.

If you don't enjoy, don't do it.
I actually think that is a pretty radical message

That.
That's what I mean. And yes, it's very worrying that that is a radical message.
It makes me v worried for what relationships kids that are currently growing up are going to have.
And it is why DS4(4) has been taught only to kiss people who want to be kissed (he is a very enthusiastic and wet kisser ).

If I were a mother of daughters I'd be petrified for them; as it is I worry about what kind of skewed ideas about girls/women/relationships my boys are being fed.

'Making PIV less painful, is never a solution'

When you mentioned the post-childbirth PIV threads in pp, I read that as those threads which are dealing precisely with pain issues (and the onwards stress/nervousness it causes) from those who do want it solved, because a sex life with PIV was good before and they want it equally good again.

That's the snag with the theorising about PIV. It tends to leave out that it's genuinely enjoyable and enjoyed by so many.

Oh, of course, for procreation PIV would only be required a few times and could be over quickly, but you'd never get rid of it altogether as long as humankind continues to exist.

I find the focus on PIV counterproductive because it concentrates on ONE way of having sex rather than on the bigger issue that whatever 2 people get up to should be mutually respectful and pleasurable. I fear scallops has got it right.

I was 15 and was disgusted with the poor quality of the writing in the supposedly erotic story

Sorry, but that made me critiquing the writing.

It is definitely more pervasive now, I asked Dh if he "expected" women to not have pubic hair (he is ten years older than me) and he gave me this face. Where as I have seen online and in mens and womens mags that men our age and especially younger seemed to be genuinely shocked if they find pubic hair. You can definitely see when internet took hold.

IMO there is whole damaging world of difference between a bit of soft-focus nekkid ladies in the kind of magazine I found under my fathers bed available to the mass market in the, say, 80s and the kind of hardcore, brutal, damaging porn now readily to anyone who knows how to click a few buttons.

It is all about self-determination. Blow jobs - great, if you enjoy them. PIV - fine, if you enjoy it.
There seems to be so little information/teaching about what a mutually respectful relationship looks like and that saying NO to anything at all is absolutely acceptable and to be respected whether it's a no to having your ear licked or PIV.

"but from what some people are saying the focus has moved away from mutual pleasure." Ultra cynical here but has the focus ever been on mutual pleasure? Isn't that part of the problem with meaningful consent. The focus on sex has always been heavily on the man's pleasure?

Oh yes. If your relationship includes PIV on a frequent basis, then removing it altogether is a major change. It's a straw man argument to confuse the big features of the nature of a relationship, with consent for each act every time.

The threads I remember seeing in Relationships (and Health, and Family Planning) about resuming PIV after childbirth have all been from the perspective of a woman who wants her sex life to include it once again. I think I remember threads reminding people of non-PIV options in different circumstances.

If there are threads where a woman is being coerced, then perhaps posters from here need to join them and put other courses of action into the mix?

Well, there is one compelling biological reason for PIV - it is still the main low-tech way of achieving pregnancy.

I accepted that if I was going to be a sexually active woman, I was going to have PIV.
Yes, I did too. And I am old and am very worried about the pornification of young people's sexual 'education' and thus expectations.
The older the get the more I realise how lucky I was to grow up when I did and that my choices were respected at all times.
Socialising is all-powerful and I agree that there are far more pressing relationship problems that need solving before PIV is suggested and it's certainly NOT a solution to any relationship problem.

We are about the same age Chunder but I grew up in the states, where porn was already easy to obtain. Am I right in thinking that except for the odd magazine it was illegal in the UK?

I would answer the 'no more PIV in this marriage'in exactly the same way here as I would in Relationships.

Yes, it is unfair because it is a major and unilateral change in the established attempt of the marriage. If you read the Relationships board, you will see that non-PIV sex is discussed, suggested even promoted. But major unilateral changes in relationships aren't.

And being unaware of non-PIV sexually stimulating activities does not mean that consent for PIV is in any way lacking. It might be an argument for better sex education, and more open discussion of sexual activity and all it's possibilities. But is does not render consent to the known activity any less valid.

x-post with you, calmet

I think the more "options" for sex that girls have the more ways they will be violated.

I think, sadly, this is true. Which is why I think meaningful consent is all about self-esteem and firm boundaries and having the 'permission' to say no and have this respected wrt whatever form of sexual contact.

I'm inclined to agree with chunderella, although have been with dh for a long time too. I think as a teenager it is not unexpected that you might not be willing to have piv, as an adult going into a new relationship or in an existing relationship I suspect it would be seen as rather odd.