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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why do we need men

68 replies

AICM · 29/05/2014 19:35

Not what you’re thinking!

I mean why do we need men to make sexist comments when so many women seem to do such a good job on their behalf?

I teach in a Primary School were the staff are 90% female. Here is a flavour of just some of the many comments I’ve heard recently:

When a woman applied to be our new caretaker “We need a man to fix things surely?”

When discussing a young female member of staff the word “slut” is used a lot.

When a man bought a new Ford Ka “That’s girl’s car!”

Passing endless negative comments about other woman’s weight and appearance.

Referring to the office staff as “the girls in the office”.

“One of the male teachers should run the football team. It’s man’s job.”

“I’d hate to work for a female head. Female bosses are always bitches.”

“Why would a man want to teach the little ones? They’d never cope!” (At our school a man does the teach little ones and he’s brilliant)

When a male TA (teaching assistant) was appointed the other TAs were angry because they didn’t a want a man in the resource room when they were working in there.

And the best one, remember this is coming from a teacher, “Girls aren’t good at maths.”

Just about the only people who are not sexist are the men!

I do challenge these comments when I hear them but it’s so awful that they make them in the first place.

OP posts:
LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:13

I'm not quite sure if you are coming across as you intend to come across.

I'm slightly creeped out by the gag rule comment now.

I suggest you have a look at Talk Guidelines, and stop insulting people who are trying to answer your questions.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 01:10

Glad to see it all checks out, then.

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:08

This is what gag rule means, mont: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gag_rule

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 01:07

Now now, LRD, there's no need for you to submit to gag rule just yet - you've only just arrived!

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:01

(Is it just me who sees 'fool' in a Mr T accent there, btw?)

LRDtheFeministDragon · 30/05/2014 01:00

It's tricky to follow posts when people reach for language too complicated for their capacities, mont. Do you mean, you're struggling with scallops' description, or her terminology? I'm not quite clear what a figurative insult would be, but perhaps that is something I don't need to know? Confused

I don't think it's very nice to claim 'feminist' is a slur, do you?

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:57

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 00:36

OK I'm disengaging. You clearly don't recognise (or maybe not understand) structural oppression at least not in relation to men's oppression of women, mont.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:31

"So why are you insisting that we tackle the symptoms i.e. women's behaviour?"

Because it is part of the problem. Why do you insist on describing women as somehow causally inert with respect to men, but not vice versa?

"And punishments are not administered as much by women as men. Women aren't raping other women. Women aren't murdering other women. Women aren't harassing other women in the street."

None of those are systematically in response to perceived transgression against gender norms. Heck, the latter is itself a gender norm!

"Women's agency is more limited than men's because they are the one's being oppressed."

Men's agency is equivalent to women's agency.

"Glad you've admitted you aren't here to listen to other people's perspectives. Got rid of that charade then."

Listen - don't be a twit.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:25

But do keep in mind, differences between men and women are ultimately beside the point. Fundamentally it is an ethical argument that it is not just for women to have less privilege or right than men.

That the sexes are not identical does not validate undervaluation of femalehood or female action.

gamescompendium · 30/05/2014 00:25

This is why both my and DD1 tend to find chatting to men easy and women/girls sodding hard work. M

Far too many women are gossipy, appearance obsessed and unpleasant to other women.

Oh look, yet another example of what the OP is talking about! Hmm

scallopsrgreat · 30/05/2014 00:23

So why are you insisting that we tackle the symptoms i.e. women's behaviour? The women's behaviour described in the OP are not because they are the oppressors it is because they are oppressed. And punishments are not administered as much by women as men. Women aren't raping other women. Women aren't murdering other women. Women aren't harassing other women in the street.

Women's agency is more limited than men's because they are the one's being oppressed.

Glad you've admitted you aren't here to listen to other people's perspectives. Got rid of that charade then.

22honey · 30/05/2014 00:18

I also cannot believe a poster is being nastily taken up on about the fact they are looking to debate on an discussion forum.

Why on earth else would they be here?

22honey · 30/05/2014 00:17

Christ, yet another attempt to berate and humiliate a poster using ad nauseum sarcasm purely because they state the obvious.

What mont is saying is correct. There are billions of women who truly believe they are inherently different to men thus expectations of behaviour, conduct and all else are different too.

Other women are the worst for bullying, criticizing and putting down other women for things like their sexual promiscuity, weight and appearance.

There is no way I buy the argument they all hold these opinions because they are told or socialized to. Its not inconceivable to accept many people when given all the facts still believe men and women are different creatures.

Montmorency1 · 30/05/2014 00:09

Women are only complicit because of the punishments on offer for stepping out of line.

As administered by women just as much as men.

"If those threats weren't there then women wouldn't be complicit."

Utterly ridiculous. Women are socialized in a certain way, meaning they internalize and propagate values and norms just as well as men do. Do not pretend that women have any less social agency than men.

"Tackle the root of the problem not the symptoms."

That's the idea...

"Thanks for pointing out my flaws in thinking. I'm so grateful. can you be any more patronising"

I am so sorry, did I interrupt some circle-jerk you had scheduled? I should know better than to offer reasoned debate on an Internet debate forum.

"Not sure why are you limiting the conversation to western women though?"

I am not; I am pointing out that the situation is qualitatively different, and so must be treated in a different way. It matters as to the solutions, in other words.

"You are just debating"

That's why I'm fucking here, Jesus Christ.

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 23:52

"All women are complicit. That is why if they do not change then nothing changes"
Women are only complicit because of the punishments on offer for stepping out of line. If those threats weren't there then women wouldn't be complicit. Tackle the root of the problem not the symptoms.

"The other flaw in your thinking is that male "oppression" is in the West substantially cultural rather than institutional, and is thus much less affected by fiat decree."
Thanks for pointing out my flaws in thinking. I'm so grateful. can you be any more patronising Nice that you put oppression in inverted commas too. Just to ensure we know it's not real oppression. If I could actually be arsed I would dispute your position on the influence of government on women's oppression and whether the oppression western women are subjected to is institutional. And whether that in fact matters. Not sure why are you limiting the conversation to western women though? I wasn't.

"I would not bother to seek out perspectives other than my own." You aren't really seeking out other perspectives are you though. You are just debating and theorising other people's oppression. Which is a bit shit really.

TheSameBoat · 29/05/2014 22:48

I feel like I've internalised sexism because when I hear of someone being raped I automatically look for reasons why it happened and think "oh I wouldn't have put myself in that position".

And then rational feminist thinking takes over and I realise that the only reason for rape is the rapist's active choice.

Of course the first reaction is far more comforting and that's possibly why so many women adhere to it. We are convincing ourselves we are in control.

Damn you feminism!

Beachcomber · 29/05/2014 22:01

Big yawn at montmorency1's contributions.

Other than that, agree with everybody else.

OP, try googling "internalized sexism". finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/20/internalized-sexism/

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 29/05/2014 21:55

Oh yay, Mont is back.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 21:42

To change the patriarchy, women must change along with men - or else nothing changes. You see, women do not exist in some kind of stasis or vacuum; they are perfectly integrated into human society.

"we do get some women helping men with that"

All women are complicit. That is why if they do not change then nothing changes.

The other flaw in your thinking is that male "oppression" is in the West substantially cultural rather than institutional, and is thus much less affected by fiat decree.

And I assure you Satan, if I had a superiority complex I would not bother to seek out perspectives other than my own.

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 21:32

That's interesting Satans Grin

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 21:32

No you just reiterated that women need to change. I'm not seeing why women need to change. They aren't the ones doing the oppressing.(although we do get some women helping men with that).

SatansFurryJamHats · 29/05/2014 21:29

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Montmorency1 · 29/05/2014 21:22

"Yep thanks for telling us about female oppression and what feminism needs to do."

Um, yeah, I suppose I should know better than to do such a thing on a feminism discussion board, of all places.

"Didn't really answer my question though"

??

As far as I can tell I directly addressed both of your questions.

scallopsrgreat · 29/05/2014 21:17

Yep thanks for telling us about female oppression and what feminism needs to do. Didn't really answer my question though (which of course you don't have to do).