Why do we need men

Though this seems to continue even in the absence of men, I have known women who have worked in all female workplaces like nurseries/hairdressers and the bitching/bullying gossiping can be horrible. This is what I find odd in that women will use slut shaming.

Similarly all men workplaces can mean more 'banter' misogynistic crap.

There should be a balance of women and men. Im not sure what your suggesting? I have wonderful men around me, and I wish there were more women who has the same compassion as them.

Bill, of course it is to do with conditioning, it is also to do with self protection. If a woman can identify with the perceived ideas of the surrounding men, then she might feel like she is protecting herself from them, in an 'I'm one of you now!' way. It also helps to 'other' other women. It's not a pleasant tactic, but it must be a successful one when it comes to self preservation.

In order to try and please "whichever man is in the vicinity" (which implies a man not necessarily known to them) then an assumption about what might please a generic man will need to be made.

That's what I meant by "men as a class". HTH.

No, its designed to please whatever man is in the vicinity of them at the moment. I doubt they even think of men as a 'class'.

"CaptChaos many women are total and complete man pleasers and I personally think this is them as people and not conditioning"

So is this behaviour described in the OP intended to please men as a class?

And yet it has nothing to do with conditioning as to what might please men as a class?

Ok...

CaptChaos many women are total and complete man pleasers and I personally think this is them as people and not conditioning, as plenty of women are not willing to pander and bend to everything a man wants all the time.

It gives them power and status among men groups for women to pander to them (Im not even talking about sexually either here), I witnessed a lot of this when I was a teenager+.

I agree Tei, people are responsible for their own words. If women are coming out with such outright sexism, it would always be ok to challenge them on it. Women can be as misogynistic as the next man, and, if we;re feeling brave we should be calling them out on it in the same way as we should be calling men out.

It's interesting to look at the reasons why women internalise misogyny though, and I agree with PP that it must be because it creates a sense of being 'in' with the oppressor. A false sense of security. A watered down version of female MRA handmaidens, perhaps?

'When discussing a young female member of staff the word “slut” is used a lot.'

Women are always calling other women sluts and being bitchy and nasty about them, espcially if such women are younger and better looking than they are.

You see the inane bitchiness on Mumsnet from older women to younger women all the time, they hate being told or debating with younger women and never fail to mention how they are older thus have much more experience of whatever the subject is than the younger woman (this of course is a logical fallacy as age doesn't correlate to someone having experience in anything at all).

Women are threatened by other women when they feel have some sort of advantage over them.

I suppose they are forced to behave and think like this by men now, and they have natural feelings of envy and jealousy about other women because of men.

Utterly ridiculous.

'The women's behaviour described in the OP are not because they are the oppressors it is because they are oppressed. And punishments are not administered as much by women as men. Women aren't raping other women. Women aren't murdering other women. Women aren't harassing other women in the street.'

You believe its because they are oppressed...do they? How do you know that isn't just what they actually think and feel?

Punishments for what? Other women are the worst for bullying other women for their decisions. I wouldn't consider rape a 'punishment' for anything either, that isn't why its done.

Women do murder other women, so thats incorrect for a start.

Again is seems you now want to lay the blame of a large amount of women's behaviour, thoughts and character at the door of 'men'.

Thanks calmet. I've been recommended that before and still haven't read it. Not sure which Dworkin book to start on tbh (haven't read anything by her but want to).

And yy to when women got the vote. The majority of women were against it (or ambivalent) at the time. Yet now it is a true minority of women who don't think they should have the vote. Attitudes and behaviour changed after that freedom was granted.

"You could take away male violence (ah, if only) and there would be a lot of sexism left, with no need for violence to maintain it." Yes I think you are right if tomorrow male violence was eradicate then that would be the case. However, I don't think that the patriarchy is going to disappear in a puff of smoke when all men see the errors of their ways. I think it will be a gradual change and as such people's mindsets will change gradually. What equality looks like will change too.

There are pamphlets arguing against women get the vote, which say that 99% of women agree with them. I am sure it wasn't that high a percentage of women, but it probably was the case that most women thought they should not be able to vote. I think about this whenever the current situations seems unchangeable.

Also you might find it useful to read Right Wing Women, which you can download for free here. It explains why women say and do anti feminist things.

radfem.org/dworkin/

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure

I meant women in the context of an female workplace.

Obviously people in general shouldn't use it as a negative slur

in the future women will be able to impregnate themselves telepathically or better still men being able to have the babies too i think its time evolution had another advancement
men and women are equal though blah blah blah
men do what women do and women do what men do its 2014 ffs grow up YABU OP
your also sexist (yes women can be too and yes men have feelings like women do!)

And that word "responsible"--when an adult speaks, I give them credit or blame for what they've said, and I don't look for ways to believe that they didn't really mean it. Isn't that the way everyone should treat everyone? So if someone talks a sexist line, they're doing it because they're a sexist, and they, not the hypothetical rapist around the corner, take the responsibility for it.

Well, I won't keep hammering at it. But I think that plenty of women in our society find it pleasant enough that they're full supporters and participants, without being in any way deluded or forced to do so, and if we want to change society, we have to persuade them to change their minds. You could take away male violence (ah, if only) and there would be a lot of sexism left, with no need for violence to maintain it.

Actually I missed something. I said "very few women will condone rape or murder" but for these people at the school, I can just hear them saying "Well, she was asking for it, wasn't she". They're in charge of bringing up young people. It makes you shudder.

"women should be banned from using the word slag or slut"

Women should be banned, or people?

When discussing a young female member of staff the word “slut” is used a lot.

I have been thinking about this re using the word "bossy" women should be banned from using the word slag or slut to describe other women as straight away you are saying a women should behave in a male proscribed way.

TeiTetua with regards your point about women taking responsibility for their behaviour, I think overall women are made to take responsibility for their behaviour far more than men. It is men's behaviour that is excused, minimised, accepted much more than women's behaviour.

Can I just clarify where I am coming from with regards to women's behaviour (bearing in mind I am formulating these thoughts on the fly a bit).

The premise of the OP is that men don't need to oppress us as women are doing such a good job of it. I am not denying that women can do a great job upholding the patriarchy in certain arenas, what I am saying is that what underpins all this and actually creates the oppression is male violence and male dominance. Men don't have to threaten or police us everyday to do that. They've set up the structures in place whereby this isn't necessary and they are more than happy to let women take over the mantle of maintaining certain areas of that structure (although about 1500 women raped a week in the UK; 1 in 4 women the victim of a sexual assault and over 2 women a week being murdered at the hands of men shows that male violence is being perpetuated with frightening regularity).

The OP in her understandable annoyance and frustration has glossed over all the ways in which men perpetuate abuse and the fact that they are benefactors of keeping women 'in line'. And this is what happens. By focusing on women's behaviour, men's behaviour is sidelined when in fact it is their violence that is at the root of oppression. Surely our energies should be going into tackling the root of our oppression?

Most of my response about changing women's behaviour was in response to mont's "women must be changed" as if we were defective. I do think that most women's behaviour will change after the patriarchy is dismantled. If you look at the changes in the last century and how women's behaviour has changed, the vast majority of it has occurred after we got more freedom. So how much women's behaviour 'must' change in order for that to happen I don't know. Or even if it is actually a change in behaviour or women just pushing through with want they want to be allowed to do.

Having said that what Mini said about feminism allowing women to see their oppression, change their attitudes and fight oppression is spot on. This, to me, is allowing women to follow their true path rather than changing their behaviour per say. I suppose I think women are in a state of changed behaviour at the moment because of oppression and feminism and dismantling the patriarchy puts it all back to 'normal'.

But ultimately the conscious-raising and changing attitudes and fighting oppression is all about changing male behaviour and once men stop being violent and stop dominating women we will be freer, have more agency and be able to behave more naturally (wherever that lies - which is a whole different discussion!).

Nail on the head, mini

Mostly in response to Scallopsrgreat, with things like this:

"So why are you insisting that we tackle the symptoms i.e. women's behaviour? The women's behaviour described in the OP are not because they are the oppressors it is because they are oppressed."

I think this needs more consideration. Suppose, hypothetically, that a lot of women actually were enthusiastic supporters of some aspects of sexismand they acted as described in the original message from AICM. If you say they do that "because they're oppressed" that's good feminism in one waywomen fail to support other women because they're being coerced--but on the other hand, you're taking away genuine autonomy from them. Basically, do women have the right to be sexist, and own their actions and take responsibility for them? I'd hate to think that if someone disagrees with us, we say they're somehow deluded or forced to do what they're doing, and we won't approve of them until they conform to our much more intelligent view of the world. Maybe they say the same about us!

And then this:
"And punishments are not administered as much by women as men. Women aren't raping other women. Women aren't murdering other women. Women aren't harassing other women in the street."

In this case the punishments are in the form of disapproval and insults by women, no physical violence involved. So why talk about men's violent actions, unless the objective is to blame everything on men? If we escalate from the one to the other with no reason, it looks as if we'd much rather talk about what men do than what women do. My feeling is that the way we pressure each other to behave in our present society is much more of a cooperative effort between women and men than we'd like to admit (though very few women will condone rape or murder). But a lot of women will say in one way or another "Boys will be boys". And "Girls should be girls" too.

Dominant ideologies, are just that and they go unchallenged because they assume a "naturalness" or common sense understanding. Of course women are subject to social conditioning and ideology. We are never individuals, we are subject from the day we are born, to internalise this thinking as though it were our own. We think this is our own self generated belief, we find it reflected back at us, this affirms the ideology. Of course women have to change. They have to see it for what it is, and challenge it, and thankfully that is what feminism allows us to do.

"people who are trying to answer your questions."

That's pretty funny, actually.