The "Friend Zone"

Damned if he walks away from the friendship because she'll feel valueless
And damned if he stays because anything nice he does it's because he is expecting sex.
Women are complicated.

But some women on this forum have a jaded view on men.

As for the man in the news, he had serious mental issues and he needed help.
FGS he wrote graphic details about his and her bf.

His response wasn't unusual, only the scale of it was. Most guys with his attitude would rape women as a form of revenge, he went out and killed them which is more extreme version of the same thing.

But the basic point remains. He felt, as do many men, that they "deserve" women's bodies simply because they are men. Apparantly he didn't even talk to the women he felt 'friendzoned' him, they should have just , in his mind, naturally fallen for him because he was a 'Nice Guy'. While his was an extreme reaction, it's not uncommon for men to feel aggrieved when women don't see them in a sexual way.

These men, and there are plenty of them out there, aren't really interested in friendship. 'Friendzone' is just a term for women who dare to have agency and bodily autonomy. They don't really see women as 'people' all they want is sex and they believe that by acting in a friendly manner women will automatically want to sleep with them. Nothing else. It's a form of mysogeny that, in it's extreme form, gets women killed.

Elliot Rodgers may have had mental health problems, but he's not the only man who gets violent when he is denied what he thinks is his due.

Yes, one was done to teach someone a lesson for religious reasons. One was done to teach someone a lesson for misogynistic reasons.

but you are happy to call out the root cause of the first story

Only disappointed I can't say that was my original thought. Had it pointed out on the other thread by Hakluyt who posted an article about "misogynist* extremism.

www.newstatesman.com/lifestyle/2014/05/lets-call-isla-vista-killings-what-they-were-misogynist-extremism

But to be fair you probably have to be a little unhinged to murder someone in cold blood like those two did to Lee rigby.

The two cases are totally different. The above link was supposedly done for religious reasons. The lad who murdered the poor girls has been in therapy since he was 9 according to the BBC article.

I aren't defending him but I don't believe the girls were killed as they 'friend-zoned' him. He was unstable and snapped.

www.reuters.com/article/2013/11/29/us-britain-soldier-idUSBRE9AS0JH20131129

Why mental illness? What about the story above, same?

I've been away slug so have had a niy of a news blackout. Just read it now and its awful. this is surely a case of someone with serious mental illness though.

Anything to help reallyfuckingfedup

Really spence? Did you not see all the news about the latest mass shooting women in the US who had the gall not to sleep with a man?

Thanks Fasttouch, we all thought we knew what we were talking about...so it's good to have it explained in a way we can understand!

The dreaded friend zone is not about sex, or anti woman. It's about a man who really likes a woman who sees him only as a friend whilst at the same time keeps complimenting his qualities. "Your so nice wish I could find a guy like you".

Friend zoning can happen to anyone really but the men that really get stuck there (they can literally spend years pining) tend to be men who are too nice for their own good.

Eventually they do realise she just doesn't like you in that way, and they pretty much walk away from the friendship which in my opinion is the best thing for them. It is painful having feelings for someone who doesn't have feelings for you, so its best to distance yourself.

Sorry slug I must have missed about it killing women. Is it earlier in the thread? I'm sure there are some horrible examples but I was just speaking from personal experience

How ironic! So in the original story, the man had placed himself in the friend zone by not showing romantic interest. And now it's women friend zoning men without even knowing that we're doing it?

quick google also mentions friends as having coined the phrase in a 1994 episode about rachel and ross

Yes this is where I first heard it . It was Joey to Ross "You waited too long to make your move and now you are in the friend zone"

it's the first reference i ever came across - it was hugely popular and they did a very funny skit on it - it was from that point that i began noticing people defining themselves by the term.

quick google also mentions friends as having coined the phrase in a 1994 episode about rachel and ross

Is "the friend zone" from Scrubs?

The whole "friend zone" idea is just horrid. It's more damaging because it's seen as a playful notion and can't be misogynistic because that's where all the "nice guys" are hiding.

I blame scrubs.

Apart from when it's used as an excuse to kill women of course

I'm sure there are some with anti woman sentiments but the from my own personal experience I've never seen the friendzone used as an insult to women.

In the case of my old friend, it wasn't so much that he expected sex, but that as soon as my potential as a mate was closed off to him he just lost interest in me. He didn't want a friendship, he wanted a relationship, and when that was off the cards he just didn't see the point in carrying on being friends. That made me feel pretty valueless.

Dadwashere - I can sympathise with a man who genuinely likes a woman that seems to walk blindly into shit relationships while he stands on the sidelines and tears his hair out. I have seen friends I love do the same thing and it is infuriating. Equally there is nothing wrong with harbouring a secret hope that a friend you have feelings for will reciprocate those feelings (although it could be argued that you are just setting yourself up for a fall and wasting your time, but heyho, it happens). The issue is when a man sees the time and effort he puts into the "friendship" as an investment that the woman is at some point required to return, with interest, in the form of sex. The underlying assumption is that a woman owes a man sex if he is kind and supportive towards her, and that the "friendship" is basically just a ruse, a transaction as the man in that spoken word clip put it. In that situation the woman genuinely believes the man is her friend and expects the friendship to continue. When the man suddenly gets angry or loses interest because he didn't get his side of the "bargain" (ie sex) it is incredibly disappointing. It basically says that this person who you saw as a friend didn't see you as a friend at all but as a potential fuckslot that he could gain the use of by building up "credit" in the form of kindness and support. It's bloody awful.