This is what misogyny and male entitlement leads to.

22 honey the media executives at the top are 99% male

AF, I have seen men online state it isn't 'polite' for women not to entertain conversation with any man that wants to.

It seems women are expected to do all they can to feed a mans ego, even humour him.

Darksesteyes I dont read women's magazines at all since I was about 15, benefits propaganda is all over main TV and news websites, its nothing to do with womens magazines.

Who does the propaganda come from? Middle class journalists, well off media types etc.

22 honey said No, but 'hard working' middle class people DO have a collective voice and have had an influence on this countries recent policies and also the media annihilation of poor mothers on benefits actually came about due to bitter better off people bemoaning the fact they get council houses, benefits etc."

I disagree. I think you have this the wrong way around. The propaganda in the press comes first. Look at history. In 1930s Germany there were posters up everywhere and articles in their press about how much disabled people and poor people were costing the nation. Sadly we have not learnt from history and it seems that facism still takes hold in times of economic uncertainty.

And it is the magazines aimed at working class women like Womans Own Woman etc who run benefits propaganda.

Ive bought many of the more "upmarket" mags in my time New Woman Eve Marie Claire Easy Living Red Psychologies. And ive NOT seen even ONE benefits propaganda article in any of them.

We've been trained. I was blunter and more direct when I was younger and got name-called, threatened and questioned over it. Sometimes it's just too tiring to stand up. Sometimes you just let one go.

And yet women who do come out and say "I have no wish to have a conversation with you, kindly leave me alone" are seen as rude, too "blunt", manhating, aggressive or even not feminine enough.

It sucks. Why does his need to not be offended trump mine ?

Am having a conversation about this on FB, so don't want to reproduce it all here, but it certainly resonates with a lot of women

And this from Sarah Ditum:

"Not all misogynists kill. But all misogyny creates the conditions in which women are killed, raped and abused, and in which women fear being killed, raped or abused. This is not complicated. It is simple, it is deadly, and it is the reason feminism is necessary."

Has been what I've been scrabbling to say in my crappy, inarticulate way!

From Amanda Hess' article:

"Another young woman was alone at the bar when an older man scooted next to her. He was aggressive, wasted, and sitting too close, but she smiled curtly at his ramblings and laughed softly at his jokes as she patiently downed her drink. “Why is she humoring him?” my friend asked me. “You would never do that.” I was too embarrassed to say: “Because he looks scary” and “I do it all the time.”

Women who have experienced this can recognize that placating these men is a rational choice, a form of self-defense to protect against setting off an aggressor. But to male bystanders, it often looks like a warm welcome, and that helps to shift blame in the public eye from the harasser and onto his target, who’s failed to respond with the type of masculine bravado that men more easily recognize."

I do this and I hate it about myself. I never feel brave enough to just say "Excuse me I just want to get on with reading this book." Or "Can you excuse us, we're in the middle of a conversation."

Even just imagining saying it makes me feel uncomfortable.

'It's also deeply sad that so many young girls internalise the misogynistic attitudes you experienced and then police the behaviour of other women'

Yes, it seems to be ingrained in a lot of people's minds from a very young age. Why that is I don't know, I never held such sexist views myself especially not at such a young age, maybe they had very conservative parents.

Honey I completely agree that holding men and women to different standards of behaviour because they are different is wrong and damaging.

I'm sorry about your experiences. Trying to just carry on with life after being raped is hard enough. When you are being blamed for it it must feel fucking impossible.

For what it's worth I think you've got a lot of things to say that are worth listening to.

But can I please ask you to stop misquoting me saying I think "middle class women are vulnerable" I never said it and you've acknowledged I never said it and then you've brought it up again! It makes me feel like you are twisting my words and not allowing me to discuss the issue with you.

I have a mysogynist to deal with on another thread, anyway.

Will shut up for a while now. Too many cross posts occurring (by me)

ANyfucker ok but I will avoid doing so because it would probably cause negative feeling between posters due to the carry on that would occur from this thread.

Stop derailing the thread!

Now we are getting somewhere !

'now try not to tell her she can't possibly understand because she is a white middle class yappy woman who doesn't know what it feels like to suffer at the hands of misogyny, yah ?'

Never said that to her. I stated the basic fact that poor women are more likely to 'suffer at the hands of misogyny', not that any poster doesnt know how it feels.

Stop derailing the thread! :)

x-posted with 22. Sorry that happened to you.

ANyfucker ok but I will avoid doing so because it would probably cause negative feeling between posters due to the carry on that would occur from this thread.

cross posted with buffy...there ya go

now try not to tell her she can't possibly understand because she is a white middle class yappy woman who doesn't know what it feels like to suffer at the hands of misogyny, yah ?

this is how it works

Buffy it was worse because they are not gay. When I pressed them on this (not being gay means you didn't want to sleep with that person, nor did I) one of them was confused. The other got it. FWIW, I've been chatted up, albeit politely, in gay clubs too. One of the people concerned actually did a little conscious raising for me. I said, "sorry, I'm straight", she said, "never ever be sorry for who you are".

Article by a male nerd about this and why it is the business of ALL MEN.

Really Buffy? Its something I picked up when I was a small child and noticing most politicians on telly were male, and affluent.

'My question was whether so many are invested in glossing over the misogyny involved in this crime because they don't want to be forced to look too closely at this domination and realise what you and I have realised '

There are loads of people including women that don't even play into the notion of misogyny, they are firmly of the belief that men and women are different and social gender roles and the inane sexism everywhere accurately affect that.

When I was raped as a young teenage girl by someone I had had sex with previously (he manipulated me looking back, the twat!) the lack of sympathy mainly came from other teenage girls, I actually had a so called friend say to me it was 'normal for boys to have sex with different girls but not for girls to do the same' (i was apparently a slag and asking for it for having had sex with him previously). She was about 13 years old at the time. The victim blaming that overwhelmingly came from other girls my age made the whole experience much much more traumatic as you would imagine. BAring in mind I am only 22 this wasnt that long ago.

I've no idea if peoples parents put these thoughts into folks head or what but it is extremely common in my view for both sexes to see the roles of men and women as completely different and thus the behaviour of them should be different aswell. I really hate and disagree with this notion by the way, its very damaging in my experience.

honey, if you started a thread about how poor women are less able to escape misogyny, it would attract constructive debate

the way you have debated it here has not been constructive

simply, put, ending many of your posts with "that's not very sisterly, is it" so ner doesn't tend to stimulate healthy narrative, it just doesn't

"Goldie, I have already said that I will not start a thread as it is clearly not high on the agenda of most posters."

Indeed, but you persist in coming back to the point and trying to push this thread off topic, which isn't the right way to get support for your point.

As you see from my post, I believe that there is another pressing issue - not an easy one but possibly easier than changing global society - that also needs addressing. Getting guns out of the hands of misogynists and other people that are not of sound mind who go on to commit mass murder.

It was once said by the NRA that 'Guns don't kill people: People kill people'. True, but it'd be a lot harder without a gun - especially to commit a mass atrocity.