This is what misogyny and male entitlement leads to.

I've tried pointing it out in other threads a few times but then apparently I'm anti feminist. I'm not. I feel this board gets far too insular and forgets to allow others to join in very well. I like this boards topic and find it fascinating, but it's very prescriptive, our way only. And that does actually sadden me.

Isn't it funny that people come onto threads and shit all over them calling women hysterical man-haters and posting the same crap we get time after time from MRAs about how hard the menz have it etc. and yet FWR gets criticised for not allowing other to "join in very well"?

22honey you are young and have been through a lot. But you also have a lot to learn and a lot of women on this board have had a much longer experience of sexism and also of how to put across feminism, what works, what doesn't work and how much / little we care about doing feminism in a way that doesn't hurt women's feelings. You've been very insulting on this thread to a number of people individually and to us all collectively. Do you think we are going to say "I've seen the light honey now that you at the age of 22 can tell us all how we've been doing it wrong"? I have been engaged in the discussion about how feminists should tone their language since, literally, before you were born and whether we'll get further by being nice and not offending men. We may agree to differ on tone but once you start calling women hysterical and harpies, you are part of the problem, not the solution.

vosuji denied he acted because of misogyny, 22. You are minimising it.

I don't think I explained myself well Honey. I reacted in frustration at your apparent placing of yourself on one side of an imaginary wall, with the (MC, white, of course you'd know) commenters on this thread, and you with your uniquely insightful understanding of everything.

I acknowledge there is a link between poverty and violence. However, in the case in California, the actions of the perpetrator were a result of misogyny. Neither he, nor the victims (that I know of) were targeted because of their economic position.

With that I'm out. It really is dull trying to have a discussion with someone who is posting endless screeds.

indirectly*

'There was no correlation between violence and poverty - my XH was a violent arsehole who came from a nice MC household. So fuck right off with the 'wah wah wah you MC women don't understand'.'

Why not look up the statistics and you will see that poverty and a low income background increases the risk of violence for both women and children. Why try to deny this by using your own personal anecdote that your abusive DH was middle class?

Briar, I dont want to post 1 at a time, and there are no rules saying I have to either.

'We (the vulnerable, the poor, the disadvantaged'

I never said this, so don't put words in my mouth. Hilarious how you pretend to be a feminist yet belittle the experiences of poor women just because they don't agree with you that all their bad experiences were all solely down to misogyny.

'trying to deny the misogyny that he stood there and admitted is baffling'

why do people keep saying this? No one has denied and infact everyone has agreed that he was a misogynist and yes he admitted it himself.

'Can't you see it's not a contest? Just because poverty is bad and wrong it doesn't make misogyny less bad or wrong, they can both be.'

My mere point was a lot of women's suffering is caused irectly by poverty and not misogyny, yet posters here keep attempting to claim poverty has sod all to do with it.

'It might be a fucking epidemic amongst the poorest in the world but that doesn't mean that it is "rare" that it happens to rich women. Being from a well off family doesn't make you safe from abuse'

No ones saying it does, just that there must be a reason why women in poverty are more likely to be abused than better off women. Surely if it was solely down to misogyny all women would be equally at risk?

'This isn't "misogyny" or "male entitlement". The guy is just a nutter.'

I would have to quite agree with this. As I have been trying to say throughout the thread, if this was solely down to misogyny and nothing else it would be a common occurrence and wouldn't have made world news with massive interest. This guy was not well in the head and that is completely separate from his obvious misogynistic mindset.

And if he'd got into the sorority as planned?

When a man tells you what he's like, believe him.

I will hold my hand up to being a white, MC (sort of) woman. I am an immigrant, come from a WC family. In my white, MC family and amongst my friends there are survivors of rape, sexual abuse, assaults, DV. If that is the case, how much worse must it be for people with less power. I am not for one moment saying that a poor Afghan man has it better than me, but I bet he probably has it better than his sister.

No he wasn't a nutter. A loser yes. But he knew exactly what he wanted to do and why he wanted to do it.

The hoops people are jumping through trying to deny the misogyny that he stood there and admitted is baffling . The cognitive dissonance or vested interest in not believing the misogyny when it is spelled out in words of barely more than one syllable across global television is staggering.

I am actually shocked you don't think that on a worldwide scale poverty is more of an issue than misogyny.

Honey Can't you see it's not a contest? Just because poverty is bad and wrong it doesn't make misogyny less bad or wrong, they can both be.

You have refused to listen to anyone else on this thread and your posting style is aggressive. You are dismissive of other people's experiences and seem determined that yours are the only relevant ones.

I'm not white.

And it's not victim mentality. I'm talking about not blaming other poor people (like all the recent anti-Islam stuff in the media lately, immigrants, etc) for what is being caused by a tiny percentage of people who are in position of the vast majority of the wealth and power.

"We (the vulnerable, the poor, the disadvantaged)"

Talk about having a victim mentality?

White, middle class British women (who feminists tend to be) have it better than anyone else in the UK.

This isn't "misogyny" or "male entitlement". The guy is just a nutter.

Honey you are mistaken in saying it is "rare" for rich women to be raped.

It might be a fucking epidemic amongst the poorest in the world but that doesn't mean that it is "rare" that it happens to rich women. Being from a well off family doesn't make you safe from abuse.

The fact is that the most vulnerable in society are...well...vulnerable. Women, children, those living in poverty, people with disabilities, etc.

And the fact that the status quo isn't challanged to protect the vulnerable more - who does is benefit? Who is better of leaving things as they are?

Well rich, powerful, white men of course! We (the vulnerable, the poor, the disadvantaged) should stop quarrelling amongst ourselves and focus on the real problem.

And which women are more likely to be the victims of violence? Those who are poor and in poverty. I know first hand the vast majority of middle class women that call themselves feminists who bang on about misogyny being the root of all evil all the time havn't gone through any of the violent, rapey situations I have that came about because of poverty and lack of money. It doesn't happen to them because of their privileged status.

Please do not, for one moment, assume that you know everything about the lives of the people on this board. I'm WC, come from a poor, violent background and have been in more scary situations than I care to remember. There was no correlation between violence and poverty - my XH was a violent arsehole who came from a nice MC household. So fuck right off with the 'wah wah wah you MC women don't understand'.

I think it's best I do.

It is discussing 3 subjects which are very close to my heart, Feminism and ASD. I have never claimed to know everything about Feminism, and I learn everyday, but being told that I am hysterical feels wrong.

Anyway, this isn't about me.

Those young people, with all their potential and lives to live were snuffed out by a man who's stated aim, in his manifesto was to put women in a concentration camp and starve them to death. Not because of someone's imagined diagnosis of ASD or PD or anything else, but because of his all consuming hatred of women.

Honey is not the only person who posts on FWR who knows exactly what male violence and misogyny looks like, no matter what she believes.

Obviously my hysterical and stupid input is unwelcome.

Thanks for that.

Also glad that you know so much about mine and others lived experience that you feel able to belittle us all.

Have fun on your thread. I'm out.

And tbf, no one could give two shits because the media and society only ever care about middle class and above, well off white women being the victims of violence. Its the same with children, look at Madeleine McCann compared to the huge amounts of poor, mixed race or other children who go missing.

If anything, our society puts on a pedestal middle class well off white women, far from 'hating and belittling them'.

'Those girls in the sorority house he tried to get into were doubtless privileged. '

Yes, and this is big news even on the other side of the planet because its such an unusual thing to happen.

Is poor women being raped, beaten in relationships and exploited in prostitution world news? No, because it happens everyday all the time.

So a middle class woman in the UK is by definition worse off than say a random bloke in Syria or Afghanistan, just because shes a woman? Is this woman more at risk of violence than those men? Give me a break fgs, please don't try and say yes.

'We still earn far less than a man doing the same job'

This is bullshit. A 9-5 job at tesco pays the same for anyone, man or woman. You are clearly discussing the all over gender pay gap and a lot of that is to do with the fact women physically give birth to children (the fault of biology, not men) and often raise them (you could have a point with this part). This leads many of them to then go back to work that is part time/lower paid, leading to an all over gender pay gap.

This is totally ignoring the amount of privileged middle class women who don't work and infact don't need to because they rely on their DH wage. Before you say anything, no one forces women to make such choices. They tend to do it of their own free will.

You pointing out that on a rare occasion a rich woman might get raped is either here nor there, poverty is the big indication on whether a woman is likely to experience DV, rape or abuse.

You have admitted as much yourself, so how can you now say 'misogyny' is more of an issue than poverty? Is it because its hard to admit that infact if the whole of society, not just men but including those well off women were a bit more empathetic and had a bit more compassion for those who are vulnerable and poor, many women would be in a better position, or would this stop all the middle class feminists being able to play the victim all the time?

I am actually shocked you don't think that on a worldwide scale poverty is more of an issue than misogyny.

This is not a conversation with just you, why do you think it is? I am talking about people and society doing certain things, not YOU.

I would flip that about poverty as well. In most of the world and in our country for most of history women were all poor because none of them could own property. We still earn far less than a man doing the same job. Yes, poverty and race are factors, of course. Poor and Black women and women in the majority world suffer most of the brunt of misogyny. Women still die and are raped every day in the West. Rich women die and are raped. Those girls in the sorority house he tried to get into were doubtless privileged.

Even if poverty is a bigger problem (which I don't believe) I don't have a finite amount of concern. I can worry about poverty and misogyny. The solutions may be the same.