This is what misogyny and male entitlement leads to.

fuckinglondonballs my Spidey sense is tingling as I'm sure everyone else's is. What are the chances I could report your link accurately without even bothering to click it?

Janine, its well documented the well off in society are the cause of all our woes. Many middle class people have actively made life harder for those worse off.

'
I also don't think that anyone on this thread should have to "justify" to you why they should be allowed to have an opinion'

The same can be said for posters dismissing my opinion due to inane reasons.

There's a good bit in that post about feminism.

'Also, if you are a feminist as you claim, you need to be comparing middle class women's lives with those of middle class men; not with working class women, working class men,'

I know working class women who are better off than working class men.

You seem to have a real problem with people who are not poor, for some reason, and this seems to be driving your posts here.

Yes, 22honey's posts across other boards are filled with venom against what she sees as the middle classes.

I think that you are determined to read things here that are not being said.

You have mis-read my post in a way that makes out I would describe poor people as "the low end of the scale". What the actual fuck? Why would you even read it that way? Why would you even imagine that someone on this thread would post something as offensive as that?

You seem to have a real problem with people who are not poor, for some reason, and this seems to be driving your posts here.

You don't know the financial situation of anyone on this thread, nor their backgrounds, nor their experiences. You are railing against an imaginary foe here.

I also don't think that anyone on this thread should have to "justify" to you why they should be allowed to have an opinion. It is none of your business what the personal situation and backgrounds of the posters here are.

feminists in the UK are middle class

22honey you know fuck all about feminists as is staggeringly apparent on this post. How fucking condescending of you to write off the whole of the working class feminist movement. You really and truly don't have a clue.

"Random street violence actually affects men more"

If you take sexual crimes out of the figures.

If you put them back in, uh, women are still more likely to experience even random street violence. It's just not defined as violence because unless it's a rape which also involves other violence, it's "just" a sex crime.

"Some posters have been anything but polite!"

I'm surprised anyone has.

Your foot-stamping tantruming doesn't inspire politeness tbh.

I missed the stats on poor women being more likely to be abused.

What context was that in?

'Because it simply doesn't happen to men on the same scale.'

What doesnt, random stranger danger attacks?

Random street violence actually affects men more, but I presume you are talking about the fact they were raped. Again, stranger rape is very uncommon (but should not be dismissed!)

I was being facetious.

FFS

"AskBasil of course they were vulnerable....how common is 'stranger rape' may I ask?

Not very (shouldnt be mistaken for 'it doesnt matter', before you try and put words in my mouth)

You could say men are just as vulnerable as similar things have happened to them."

NO you couldn't say that as men are not as likely to be raped as women.

Why this ongoing pretence that sexual violence worldwide is not gendered? It's preposterous.

Why keep banging on about poverty being an additional risk factor? What about war? What about disability? What about substance dependence? What about all of the other things that combine together in different ways on top of the main risk factor which is being female.

Why focus on one small part of the picture? You might as well say it's very rare for women who are not in war zones to be raped, or that it's very rare for women who are not disabled to be raped.

I really don't understand where on earth you are going with these posts. Apart from to minimise the experiences of one subset of victims.

Anyfucker, that is because posters keep constantly denying and contradicting what I am saying because I dont fall into the exact same thought patterns when it comes to feminism as they do.

Some posters have been anything but polite!

(It's a very good post)

AskBasil what do you mean you are trapped in a poor womans body?

Someone has posted the stats themselves, lower income women are 3 times more likely to be abused. That means that rich women do not get abused as often. This isnt rocket science.

'why men at the low end of the scale randomly shout at / harass women they don't know on the street,'

Its not only men 'at the low end of the scale' (is this you trying to have a dig at poorer people?) who randomly shout and harass women in the street. The vast majority of men who leer at me in the street are middle aged and look to be middle class.

I worked as an escort for 3 years and the better off the man (and you could always tell from the suit, watch, shoes, car, occupation, wallet and all the notes in it etc), the worse his sense of entitlement was.

You keep on declaring that rich women don't get raped to the same extent as poor women.

As a rich woman trapped in the body of a poor one, I'd like to know where your evidence for that is please?

These are the issues connected to misogyny about this tragedy that concern me:

1. He claimed misogynistic reasons for killing people. These were very specific in that they were connected to MRA arguments and terminology and he is known to have frequented these sites. I'm concerned about the increasing use of these sites and this 'new' form of misogyny.
2. The media coverage. The fact that there is media coverage of the original MRA arguments that takes their theories seriously (all this he did it because women are punishing betas stuff) as if by killing people, he somehow legitimises the MRA argument rather than illustrating that it can (and does) have tragic consequences.
3. The blaming of women and girls in the media coverage.
4. The wider context of this in that these kind of incidents are overwhelmingly carried out by people who are a. male and b. middle class (or upper class by US definition of upper class) and they have no other real common element to them. This would strongly suggest the primary factor in these attacks as a recurring social phenomenon is something going on in male upper/middle class culture or social role in the US (and elsewhere to a lesser extent)
5. The reluctance to name this as misogyny because they are relatively rare incidents. I don't get this argument because in any situation of creating hatred towards a group, some people will be more susceptible to acting on such hatred than others. Trying to divorce such attacks from the wider context leaves survivors and bereaved family members and friends in an even more incomprehensible situation, adding to the misery they are facing.
6. The way that misogyny is used as an excuse to punish not just women but their associates. In this instance, he also hated men who had successful relationships. In other tragedies, the perpetrator goes after a woman's parents, or frequently her children, or groups of men he deems unworthy of her (black men often).

And of course, the whole idea that anyone is entitled to a woman's body.

"You could say men are just as vulnerable as similar things have happened to them."

You could, but you'd be doing a Whataboutthemenz wouldn't you?

Because it simply doesn't happen to men on the same scale.

honey, everyone on this thread has been surprisingly polite to you

such crass ignorance as you are displaying is usually very poorly tolerated here

I think people are making allowances for your young age and the well documented (by yourself) experiences at the hands of misogynist men you have shared here

I am sure you will see this as patronising, but you should be aware of it

I read this yesterday. Might interest some of you t.co/6JyOAu7tIX

Don't mistake people talking about misogyny first as their only caring about white, Western women, 22. I live somewhere where there is a real, very horrible issue with the rapes and murders of indigenous women and prostitutes. I spend more time talking about that, marching, writing, signing petitions than I do in my ivory tower, quilting quotes from Emmeline Pankhurst onto silk hankies, honestly. We can all be part of the same movement while highlighting different parts of it.

You need to ask yourself why childcare is not valued as work Honey. Who decided that bringing up the next generation didn't need paying?

And you haven't answered the question about why the workplace is structured the way it is. It's not because privileged middle class women structured it.

Also I find your assertion that poor women are more likely to be abused than rich women fucking offensive; working class men are not more violent than middle class men, they don't have a worse sense of entitlement than middle class men do. On the contrary, studies show that working class men are more likely to do more housework and childcare than middle class men and we know that domestic abuse is not a class issue, I don't understand your fury at middle class white women (which you erroneously assume everyone on this board who disagrees with you is) while at the same time slagging off working class men.

Because a large amount of women on mumsnet, and feminists in the UK are middle class. If you don't believe this to be the case please show some sort of proof, until then I will carry on believing it because that is what experience of both has shown me.