Oxford Union president rape allegations - alumni open letter

Fair enough, I haven't read it. I'm just shocked by the op's petition.... Why should he have to step down? He hasn't done anything wrong ( or hasn't been proven)...

But I'll kindly FO and leave you all to hate men! :)

the good that comes out of these men being in the public eye is that they may not be guilty or any crime...

...but they generally come over as complete w*kers and at least women have the information so can steer clear of them in the future.

Oh, and larry, no, that was not a personal attack.

I'm afraid if you post rape myths, you can expect to be called on them, and my recollection is that this has happened before. I may be incorrect, but it feels awfully familiar.

miss - sorry, but I think this is one of those cases where you need to read the thread. I think it is clearer when you read it.

It's not about his guilt or innocence. In fact, he's not even been charged, so it never got that far. What people were bothered by was him not wanting to stand aside while the decision whether or not to bring charges was being made. That's got nothing to do with anyone presuming to judge guilt or innocence. It's a separate issue.

larry, no, my posts are not doing that.

You need to read them.

I have said repeatedly on this thread that this man's guilt or innocence is not relevant. He was not charged. It is not our business what happened there.

What does matter (as, again, I have said repeatedly, if you bothered to read) is his attitude in all of this.

He could have stepped aside, knowing that the situation was not good for the Union (especially since he tried to use their money to pay his legal fees!). He could have respected the feelings of rape survivors - which is something that many men and women manage to do every day.

He did not. He decided his hobby was more important. This demonstrates that he is a rather selfish person at best.

He's very young, and god knows, he's hardly the only person to act like this. And I'm sure it was fairly horrible for him too. But I do hold out hope of men doing the decent thing. I believe the vast majority of men are capable of that. I'm not sure why anyone else doesn't, to be honest.

I have not read the whole thread but am absolutely disgusted that this thread even exists, as well as the petition posted by the OP. I was under the impression that feminists want equality.... This is clearly an attack on a man who has not been proven guilty. I am speechless.

LRD and Buffy,

What both your posts are sailing very closely to is questioning the presumption of innocence in law. It does not matter how small the percentage is, until someone is convicted of a crime, we must assume that they are innocent of it (well, we can have our own personal opinions, but it is certainly libellous/slanderous to propagate them).

I am not trying to deny that the vast majority of people who accuse someone of rape have been raped (and having been on a rape jury which convicted a rapist of 20 years ago 11-1 (I was not the one), I believe in the power of oral testimony).

However, in this case, as I stated, there was a lot of politics and reasonable motive for an unfair accusation. Neither of you (or I) can know what happened but we do know that the man was not prosecuted, nor, as far as I know, is he being sued. Have you read the Sunday Times article?

LRD,

I took this statement as a personal attack:

'I will ask HQ to pop the link to their Rape Myths, but sadly, I'm fairly sure larry's been sent that link before by them.'

If it were not meant as one, I unreservedly apologise to you.

larry

The idea that a false rape claim might be 'revenge' is an extremely common rape myth. In reality, false rape claims are extremely rare. It is much, much commoner for people not to press charges, because of their fear of being seen as vengeful or of suffering public vitriol.

Comparing rape cases to a witch hunt (as you have just done) is also, I would say, a rape myth. We all know that story: a good man is brought down by a scheming woman. To apply that to rape cases is to suggest you believe a comparison of a lying woman and a man whose life is ruined is an accurate representation of rape cases, and that is, obviously, a rape myth.

As I understand it, we do not know that, as you claim 'what is a fact is that there is insufficient evidence behind the accusation to overcome the first legal hurdle and proceed to trial'. It is very, very common for women not to press charges in rape cases for reasons that do not have to do with having insufficient evidence. To presume (as I believe you are here, though you may correct me) that the reason is insufficient evidence is to perpetuate the rape myth that women can press charges free of any fear.

I must ask you to apologise for claiming I attacked you in person (not that I imagine you have it in you). I didn't. I described your actions. If you cannot educate yourself on rape myths, it is not my job to do so. I do not have to explain the obvious to you. I've done so in this post, but to point out that you are perpetuating rape myths is something that should make you seek to educate yourself. It should not be reason to attack me, or other posters, or to throw around the word 'libellous' in the hope we don't know the law. We do.

Buffy,

I referred very carefully to this specific case in my post. I stated where my interest came from (article in the Sunday Times) and why. I also stated what I did and did not know about it.

There is no way that is 'sailing close to the wind' unless what you are basically saying is that to be accused is to be guilty and that there is no other reason to make an allegation other than it is the truth.

You point me to MN 'rape myths' and I will point you to Arthur Miller's 'The Crucible'.

Stewie has exhibited the exact reason why pre charge, some people believe, the name of the suspect shouldn't be released. When someone is arrested for a sexual offence the mud sticks, within the community.

An arrest for Burglary, Robbery, Theft, Assaults, Drink Driving etc even Murder - without a charge - no stigma would be attached to the person. The mere accusation of Rape or other sexual offences is enough for a community to brand someone guilty and make them a social pariah. Until that attitude changes then the push for anonymity will continue.

LRD,

Which rape myth am I perpetrating, please, on this thread? If you have a problem with a post of mine, please explain it, rather than attacking me in person.

pplease, I think all sardines was doing was pointing out that you seemed confused about the thread, as if you'd not read it? It was a fair comment, I was bemused too because you seemed to be suggesting you start another thread to discuss exactly what was being discussed here.

It wasn't any attempt to gain 'privacy' so far as I can see.

I will ask HQ to pop the link to their Rape Myths, but sadly, I'm fairly sure larry's been sent that link before by them. I don't think there's a specific rule against posting rape myths (could be wrong?) as usually HQ say they'd rather see posters educated than deleted, because a lot of people genuinely do not realize they are rape apologists.

Stewie's libellous post has been reported.

StewiesBack. Have you reported him to mumsnet?

Though thinking about it, I presume he is allowed to post like that, if indeed he is?

Here is some excellent research on false rape allegations from Prof Liz Kelly.

I'd also like to point out that according to the FBI, which, the last time I checked, aren't renown for being a hotbed of radical feminism, that more men report themselves as dead to commit insurance fraud than real false allegations of rape were made.

The fact of the matter is, statistically, that this man is probably guilty but the CPS don't believe they can secure a conviction. The reasons for this are fairly obvious across this thread. And, that's without looking at the very clear research which demonstrates that men commit rape on average 10 times before they are reported to the police.