open letter to aspiring women scientists

My point is that those industries are larger than academia so the discussion around getting women into STEM careers should focus on those jobs in industry with security and good conditions, not on the short term contracts in academia. If 4-5% of engineering graduates are women then there's lots of room for increased participation.

But the numbers of women in those areas are tiny - I suspect many of us saying limited women in meetings work in these areas.
For example, I found figures for O&G of under 8% and this telelgraph article suggests at 4-5% of engineering graduates are women - but there is no reference for where the data came from.
Bio and Pharma, I can see being much more equal in split.

Looked for some stats for comparable numbers of jobs. The main high tech industries have the following number of jobs in the UK (2012 figures):

600,000 jobs in the chemical industry
737,000 jobs in the motor industry
558,000 jobs in the computing industry
440,000 in the oil and gas industry
250,000 in the electrical and electronics industry

In comparison there are 378,000 jobs in the university sector. We should be pushing private industry jobs much more than academic jobs.

Agree with workshyfop, I work in the pharmaceutical field as well, for a CMO. Lots of women in meetings, lots of female managers, women on the board, good parental leave and most people return after maternity/paternity leave. I would never return to academic research (came here after my first postdoc).

I think in the promotion of STEM too much emphasis is put on academic research which I do not think is an attractive career. There's too many short term contracts, the expectation that every 3 years you should move on to another city or country to enhance your career, and too much presenteeism (as opposed to actually getting the job done). I think it might be easier to attract women into science if you say - look, if you work for a pharma company or an engineering company or as an actuary or whatever you will get a well paid stable job with good terms and conditions. I guess the trouble is the people who have time to promote STEM are academics who see the move into industry as a failure and so they don't promote it.

Addictedtosugar- I would apply under those circumstances if I genuinely thought I could do the job. This is where the covering letter is so important, if you can get across that belief in the letter, I'd say absolutely go for it. The only time I've rolled my eyes at an application has been when people have applied with no relevant skills at all and then asked for feedback as to why they'd not been short listed.

That individual would have a shock at my work Ifpigscouldfly. Good response about stereotypes.

No I didn't. I did say something along the lines that sometimes it's nice to challenge people stereotypes. He does know I'm good at my job. I couldn't give a shit about standing out. I do wear quite a bit of make up , heels etc plus I'm quite young and blonde. People usually realise I'm still good at what I do. So far.

There are really massive differences between fields. I'm biological sciences / epidemiology / public health and we are majority female. I have heard anecdotally that the worst departments for female employment and promotion in my uni are history and politics...

Can I derail the thread?
So, this applying even if you don't meet all the criteria...What happens when its the major one e.g. "were looking for a Mumsnet research scientist", and I've got everything they are after, except I only have a very little experience in MN. Apply? Or stupidity to consider it?

Ifpigscouldfly at high maintenance comment. Did you ask who exactly is maintaining you?

I have heard from women who won't dress femininely because they don't want to look even more out of place.

I was told recently I'm not a typical because I'm too high maintenance. Meaning I like clothes and shockingly wear make up. By a man obviously.

The more I think about it the more insulted I feel. It was very much implied that I couldn't be as good as a other women in the field because of this.

I think the letter paints a very negative picture and that has not been my experience as a female scientist over the last 20+ years. I'm in the pharmaceteutical industry and work with lots of female chemists and biologists. It's a fairly even male/female split. I've never heard a sexist comment (at work anyway), and my collegues are able to take up to a year maternity leave then pick up their careers where they left off. I'd say going part-time makes it difficult to climb further up the ladder but not totally impossible. Managers are understanding when people need to take time off with a sick child, or have a childcare problem - and both female and male staff do this in fairly equal measure. So for any aspiring female scientists reading this (or parents thereof) do not be put off!

I agree with the comment about applying for a job even if you only meet half the requirements though...

Like NotCitrus I am a civil servant and am frequently the only woman in the room. The sectors I deal with are very traditionally male. However there are more woman in the public sector scientific policy roles these days, so sometimes it's public sector female scientist vs male private sector ones. Loads of ex academic females in the public sector - better pay, hours and job security!

I found the same, chutney. I love the feel of academia and love campus society, but the freedom of research has been lost. The only people with any job security are 55+ and heading for retirement.

It is as you say hard for men too: more men these days want to be primary carers, and they too struggle with it. I'm not convinced academic science has a gender discrimination problem per se: I think it doesn't support carers (who are more often female).

I found the same, chutney. I love the feel of academia and love campus society, but the freedom of research has been lost. The only people with any job security are 55+ and heading for retirement.

It is as you say hard for men too: more men these days want to be primary carers, and they too struggle with it. I'm not convinced academic science has a gender discrimination problem per se: I think it doesn't support carers (who are more often female).

I found the same, chutney. I love the feel of academia and love campus society, but the freedom of research has been lost. The only people with any job security are 55+ and heading for retirement.

It is as you say hard for men too: more men these days want to be primary carers, and they too struggle with it. I'm not convinced academic science has a gender discrimination problem per se: I think it doesn't support carers (who are more often female).

I'd agree about industry Sicaq. I've had longer career breaks due to the fixed term contract situation than due to maternity leave and that instability is very hard to deal with. Having worked in both industry and academia, I far prefer industry for many reasons.

academia really suffers from the presenteeism kelpee mentioned up thread. One professor I knew was disappointed in all the younger academics not spending every waking minute in the lab, as he'd done. If anything he was more disappointed in the men as he had more trouble grasping they had working partners and were splitting household chores than he did with my leaving to pick children up. One of the make lecturers told me he felt he had to be seen to be online in the evening working, having picked his child up.

It is very rare indeed to be the only woman in the room these days, even in mech eng. I'm not sure it's helpful to give young girls that impression.

That said, women still get rarer the higher you go, and female professors are very rare in many fields.

As a lapsed scientist (physics) I often wonder if I'm doing the right thing when I do STEM ambassador stuff. It SHOULD be a dream career, but the fixed-term culture has made it a nightmare for both men and women who want a family. These days I would push people towards industry rather than academia, sadly.

boulevard I'm a civil servant and have been the only woman in the room at many a stakeholder meeting or with senior management, partly because of the subjects I work on, but mainly because almost everyone who deals with finance is male. It was last year that I had my first all-female meeting of more than two people!

Someone said they'd seen far too many bright women go into social work and PR and far too many dull men go into business and earn twice as much, simply because the men scraped through a couple college math classes. That was America but same principle here.

Maths means Money. And money means power and being able to change the world for the better more effectively. I think the belief that wanting money isn't "nice" is actually a large part of the problem.

I was told - by my undergrad project supervisor, and also by my father (a lecturer) - that it's all very well to do a PhD, but then you have to choose between career and having children. I very much doubt that male scientists are ever told this.

I chose children, anyway, and am glad I did (so far) - and no plans to return to science, because it is impossible to get back into my field once you've left.

I'm 99% sure I don't regret this...

For me the key piece of advice in the article was applying when you don't meet all the job requirements, so very true. Also the programming class comment.

I'm happy to say the article in general doesn't reflect my experience in science, the number of sexist comments I've had I can count on one hand. And I've only been asked to make notes when I've been the one running the show. One institution I worked at did have very few woman at the lecturer level or above but that was as much a reflection of its attitude to early career researchers as to women in science.

Which isn't to say its not a hard career path, especially in academic science. It's a grinding system that spits the vast majority out, men and women, and it's getting worse.

I teach Primary pupils (year 6) and it constantly frustrates me how many parents, and usually mothers I hate to say, who constantly do down their daughters' abilities in STEM subjects.
"Oh she's never been good at Maths"
"Oh she's more creative than mathematical"
"I was always rubbish at Maths too."
For me, it's no coincidence that the vast majority of my highest fliers in Maths, etc have been boys.

sausageeggbacon sometimes I'd love NOT to be recognised. I'm in industry. If I'm in a group, I'm usually the one greeted by name, while the guys often don't get named til a farewell - ie I'm instantly recognisable, and memorable by virtue of being a girl. Sometimes I'd love to be able to fade into the background.

Now, if someone can find me PPE that doesn't involve going into the lab, finding the cork borer and putting more holes in the belt, I'd be very happy!

The male / female ratio depends on how senior the meeting, and if Marketing are involved. If its technical, and senior, I can be the only girl. If marketing or sales are involved, there are likely to be other women.

Actually in the labs, its pretty much 50:50. On the manufacturing sites (except in Italy, bizarrely), its a rare female.

I work in IT not Science but this still applies. There still very few young women coming into the field. In fact the numbers seem to have declined since I started 30 years ago. In my department of 80 there are about 12 women. Of those, eight of us are over 40. And yet it's a great career for women as much as it is for men.

Completely agree with this - and yes, the numbers are declining - the percentage of women studying Computer Science at uni has been going down for a while. I think one thing people need to understand is that IT isn't just coding and operating systems - there's a whole range of different roles. I suspect other STEM areas are the same. Plus IT is the backbone of pretty much everything these days, so women should be involved.

There's a really good women's association in my company, but it can feel like it's a separate company from my own department, where they initially tried to stop me getting involved with the women's association. (Bit disappointed they backed down on that. I was quite looking forward to watching that fight. The women would have won easily.)

Boulevard Surely there can't be many fields left where the only-woman-in-the-room thing still happens?

You'd be surprised. Happens to me all the time. I do not work in science.