The 7 demands of the UK Women's Liberation Movement

Nootka, how does this relate to demands for better childcare as a feminist demand, which was the topic objected to? You essentially seem to be saying that it is okay to discriminate against primary carers, just as long as only half of the primary carers are women.

Even if only half of the primary carers in the UK were women, childcare would still be a major feminist topic in the UK because globally women are the reproductive class and that is going to continue to be the case. Feminism is a collective movement to improve the lives of women as a class. That means fighting for the rights of people who do the work of the reproductive class (looking after children, the elderly, the sick unpaid, unpaid household tasks for others) regardless of our own personal situation or whether or not we do that work ourselves.

Well exactly. I had no wish to look after my children when they were babies and found it very irritating to be told that of course that's what I really wanted to do. dh on the other hand loved his period of stay at home parenting, as many men do. If the assumption changed from women by default will want to stay at home and men will want to work then perhaps some of the discrimination toward women of childbearing age might be at least shared.

Of course, there is nothing wrong per se with women being the ones who contribute most to the care of babies/children - the idea is that it shouldn't be an expectation against which both men and women are held and judged.

Nooka, the idea that women are not going to be the people who usually look after babies is totally implausible on a global scale in our lifetimes. So of course anything around childcare is a feminist demand.

The big problem with (1) is that, given the way corporations think and behave (i.e. towards shareholders), the result would not be that women's salaries are increased in-line with men's. Rather, men's salaries would be decreased in-line with women's. It would create equality but not in the way we want!

Oh I wasn't saying it wasn't/isn't a radical concept. I'm just a bit uncomfortable with the idea that it should be a feminist demand, because to me that feeds into the idea that childcare (or indeed caring full stop) is a woman's issue, as opposed to a human/societal problem.

But yes I agree that caring is hugely undervalued and that carers are very vulnerable. I suppose I'd like to see changes to the workplace so that people (women and men) can step out/change their hours/roles for a while without that concern and that it's seen as something all sorts of different people can do quite validly as opposed to women do because they are women, and consequences be damned.

turgidday : "Actually 24 hour nurseries could be a godsend for parents that just need a good nights sleep."

Yes. Absolutely.

One of my friends pointed out that a lot of early second wavers suggested nursery care that could be used by people so that they could do something other than work!!

I sort of disagree with you, nooka. I think there is much that is very radical about this early demand, whereas i worry that the outcome of your idea is that it leaves childcare essentially a private issue and still the same potentially structurally exploitative occupation that it can often be at present.

I also suspect that it a.) delivers the whole issue of child-raising straight into the hands of the "child-rearing is a lifestyle choice" brigade and b.) leaves childcare just where it is now: a privatised caring that fucks the economic stability of the carer - with the difference that it is (supposedly) an ungendered potential exploitation. For what it's worth, the men I have known who have taken on the caring role in a major way have found themselves quite badly off, and often exploited (albeit "lovingly") by their female partners. for myself, I often think that they may well be biologically male but are, in fact, gendered female by dint of the role and its potential for exploitation.

I know I've painted a dark picture of childcare there (and we can add care of the elderly in there too) but I've read a lot of threads on mumsnet, where women discuss how they have given up work/gone part time in order to care for children - either through choice or because the cost of paid-for childcare outweighed their wages - and found their economic situation massively impaired. And we all know what that can do to your relationship and sense of well-being.

I'm coming to think more and more that this early demand was practically incendiary!!

Having said all of that ...

I just can't see this demand ever being accomplished. So perhaps we have to accommodate our desires and visions to what is possible in the given situation.???

so maybe you're right, nooka.

You can fool half the people half of the time, but with a catchy slogan you can fool half the people all of the time

• Jesus, probably

Did you just Godwin the thread?

Nice.

Catchy?

Ein Geschlecht, ein Volk, Ein Führer

But it's not catchy, is it?

But that's the point - 5 of the 7 are not concrete at all, and my blurb captures them without pretension.

We should start a petition of support for the 7 demands.

A lot more legislative change could impact all of these.

Eg discrimination in employment could be criminalised.

I dunno, something like this sounds better to me (with a separate document or clause containing specific and implementable legislative "demands"):

THE GOAL OF GENDER PARITY

Social and political institutions should acknowledge that there is a latent cultural difference in masculine and feminine expectations that ultimately unduly underprivileges women. The explicit and implicit goal of this movement is the steady erosion of most or all of aforesaid gendered expectations through education, policy, and the raising of awareness amongst the populace.

I like most of those demands, but I don't think the nursery one is quite right, although I get where it comes from. I think the modern equivalent should be more about ending the assumption that women will automatically care for babies, and the demand that family care (including all of the 'wife' work) should be considered a parental and not an exclusively maternal job. Then making sure that families are supported ceases to be a feminist issue because it's not just a 'women's issue'.

People used to say the same about care of the elderly and sick. We move on, as a society, and we discover that we can actually afford these things. And then we look at the past and we're shocked we thought the previous situation was ok.

Under our present patriarchal and capitalist system, yes.

Second wave feminists wanted to do away with that as well.

People work nights all the time and no-one bats an eyelid.

It's only when their night work might directly benefit women, that it's suddenly considered outrageous to expect people to work shifts.

Free 24 hour nurseries? Staffed by who? I think you'll find very few staff willing to work nights even for double the pay. Making it viable in the lower populated areas would be pretty difficult. You might end up paying 2 staff triple regular wages to look after one sleeping child.