Justifying long term SAHM to DDs?

Fideline

To me 30k isn't a low income, but I can see how to some it is.
They are very much real and can't see how people like me and dh live.
Its a different lifestyle where your money doesn't go as far.
I suppose in the south with a big mortgage it is a low wage.

Everything else, I totally agree with you.

I haven't noticed anyone referring to SAHMs as unemployed (I wouldn't regard anyone who earns money working from inside her home, whether as a freelancer or employed, as a SAHM either. Because otherwise, I'd be one quite a bit of the time). I haven't dismissed £30k as derisory pay. I haven't suggested that SAHMs denigrate their roles. The only denigration there has been in this thread is of WOHMs. I have expressed the hope that they don't pretend they are taking the moral high ground and that in particular they ensure that their sons get the benefit of some positive female role models so that they don't grow up thinking that proper mothers (as opposed to pseudo mothers) stay at home.

The only people who have been slagged off in this thread are WOHM.

Having had no career break. I remember 5-6 yrs ago as the golden yrs. it is much much tougher now. A non working parent trying to get back to a decent paid role will really really struggle

Let's not fight. We're all women making choices under patriarchy. Don't fight each other. That's what the Daily Mail wants.

If you are starting your own business then clearly it doesn't always matter that you haven't worked for 8 yrs. However you are naive if you think it also doesn't matter in the corporate world.

I ocasionally do some interviews for my company (Large corporate) and it DOES matter. I cannot stress how much it does matter that you can give some work related examples of situations you have been in. Not something you did when you were working 8 yrs ago.

Actually, assertions that a SAHM might find it difficult to find work in a hurry if she had to make no assumptions about the age of her ex partner, the parity or not of their previous incomes, or SEN issues (although, for people with kids with some SEN issues it might be difficult to find work that fitted in with a liveable routine). They make assumptions, based on evidence, about the current state of the economy. With particular reference to the move towards zero hour contracts etc. It may be easier to find work for a SAHM who is professionally qualified, or skilled in some way - but in many parts of the country the job market is still pretty rancid all round.

You'll see from my last post that I actually agree with you Fideline...

Yes sorry I was branching off from your point rather than disagreeing with it.

Your observation that economic concerns will often override feminist ones anyway was spot on.

Assertions that a SAHM would struggle to find work in the event of a split does rather assume some of those things really Herc as do the constant assertions that a five year break is career suicide.

And how sneery is it to refer to SAHMs as 'unemployed' or dismiss £30k pa as derisory pay or suggest that SAHPs denigrate their own role and efforts to their children?

You'll see from my last post that I actually agree with you Fideline...

I was simply reflecting on the language of the thread re choice.

Mind you, there is a recurring theme on MN of men with immutable work practices and women who make all the accommodation.

DH and I have renegotiated our working and domestic arrangements a number of times on the last 12 years. DH has changed his job a couple of times to minimise travel and increase flexibility, as I went back to my career which has zero flexibility, but other advantages (long holidays!) from which the family benefits.

I have a flexible job, clung onto it for dear life. It's not leaving home at 0700 and getting home at 1900 these days.

Yes, we have choices, handcream and I have made the choice to be a SAHP.

We are comfortable too. I went to a large comp too and then to university, and have lived in various places around the country. Go figure...

My DM was a SAHM - in fact never returned to work even when we left home. She is educated to masters level and had a 'high powered' job before DCs.

She always encouraged a strong work ethic - no days off school unless you had lost a limb, stressed importance of trying hard in everything you do, and encouraged us to fly the nest to find new opportunities and challenges. Her experience, being first in family to go to University and live 100s of miles from family, was key in her encouraging us to strive for great things. The fact that she became as SAHM was neither here nor there.

I am university educated and have a senior management role. I am well known in work/life for having a strong work ethic, to be driven and hardworking.

My DSis is similar.

Which leads me to believe, based on my own experience, that your theory is incorrect.

I think it's you who are assuming. I don't tick all those boxes and I suspect that others in the thread also don't meet your neat profile.

My DS is a "latch key kid", but we eat together, and DH or I cook when we get in, full time work notwithstanding...

But of course we are influenced by our own experiences. My mum and dad both always worked, but my mum was unsatisfied in her job, and regretted her poor and incomplete education. So for me, educating myself to a more fulfilling career choice was of great importance. Not a feminist perspective exactly, although my mum's education was probably influenced by sexist expectations, so not completely unrelated.

I should say that I took 5 years as a SAHM myself. In no way at all a feminist choice, and I would never justify it as such. I was lucky enough to take advantage of my career choice where an extended maternity/paternity break is not career suicide. But as I continue in that career, my perspective is shifting again, and certainly when I talk to my female students and I watch their interactions with male students, I am all too aware of the pressures on the girls...

I live in the ?E, not the choice of everyone but I started off in the one bed flat and many yrs later live a comfortable life. However it hasn't all happened by accident and I haven't just been lucky. Didn't go to uni, went to a bog standard sec modern which on reflection was complete rubbish.

I could chose to live where the average salary is 12k but I moved around and wouldn't allow 12k to be the only salary on offer. We have choices in life, not all the time but I am a great believer that your life is in YOUR hands.

the suggestion that £30k is a low salary

Says it all. Some people lead very insular lives.

That's not to say we always need a feminist justification for everything that we do of course. Another perspective may be more important. An economic reason for example. But I'm not sure about making it feminist just because it involves a choice, without examining the societal pressures that influence that choice.

There is actually no need for an absolute choice.

One of the frustrating things about these periodic attacks on SAHMing is that they always seem to assume;

Office jobs
Of a corporate or professional nature
Partners of the same age
And roughly equal earnings
Which are distinctly above average earnings
Robust DC who settle in FT childcare
Who don't have SEN or health issues.

It really is an incredibly fucking narrow, corporate, middle class view of the world.

I am a freelancer now (I built it up while SAHMing for my preschoolers), I know many SE parents, many other freelance professionals, many people who have combined SAH with postgraduate study or business launches, medical couples who each work 3, 12 hr shifts weekly and thus still manage to give their toddlers complete home/parental care. Many creatives who juggle.

Where is this country full of Mon-Fri, 9-5ers with rigid, straight-line career paths that cannot be paused?

Oh Herc, I have a firm grip on reality, don't you worry! I'm NOT going to let my dc (the future generation!) grow up contaminated by prejudice!

Pseudo mother or father, yes -that's exactly what a cm or nursery worker does - provides the same care duringinfancy which a child's real mother/father would have done during the week, had he/she sah instead. A working mother does not have to justify her reasons for working to me, she does what she feels is best for her and her family.

And yes, the decision to be a sahp/wohp can and should be at an equal playing field between the sexes. That of course does not happen in every household. It should, but it doesn't and that is an issue in itself to be remedied.

To the other poster: dh does do everything I do, but to a lesser extent and of course not the bf! I also see myself as the primary caregiver because I bf for longer than the societal average/norm and because I am using this time to better myself, for myself, as much as for my family.

I don't sah because I'm a 'wummen' and that is what we're expected to do - ie. be barefoot, pregnant & in the kitchen. Oh no, I am no door mat. I am.stronger and worth more than that.

My reasons to sah are no less justifiable than a mother who chooses or has to work by necessity. I don't judge working mothers, I just know working while my dc are little does not compute for me or my family.

I think I'm fortunate to be able to past my own nose, unlike... ahem... Cherie Blair Herc and her ilk.

I have not read the whole thread but has anyone mentioned how sometimes the high earning partner in a relationship can only earn that much because there is a sahp.
Both my partner & I had well paid jobs in computing. Before kids we were both on callout every night / weekend. Not something you can both do when you have children. The way our industry was moving we had to move into consultancy. That meant being prepared to work anywhere at the drop of a hat. Again not something both parents can easily do. As a family we took the decision that I would become a sahp for a while.

handcream I'm not vulnerable at all. As the non tax payer I look after our savings!

The only people being sneery and claiming superiority are those bandying about terms like 'pseudo mother'. Let's hope none of them are bringing up sons who will have the same wrongheaded attitudes.

at the suggestion that £30k is a low salary. Agencies round here are advertising £12k as "good money". There are thousands of couples who both work full time and dont bring in £30k between them! DH was on just under £12k when he decided to become a full time student and retrain. That's why most women I know work, they have no choice, or at least feel that way, as you can't live on £12k without top ups which you are condemned for receiving it would seem. As for the message that not working sends out, it's complicated. I guess what the mum did pre DC is a factor if the DD asks.

I was responding to the poster who said that whether you were working or not if your partner left you the financial position would still be the same.

No it wouldn't!!

Whilst you are together (whether that be forever or not) both your salaries go into one pot. Apart the working parent has a salary and the non working parent doesn't. That makes the non working parent very vulnerable.

Please don't underestimate the importance of being there.

That is exactly what some people must underestimate willow in order to maintain their stance of sneery superiority.

More than - tbh there are many people on MN claiming that minimum wage roles are like gold dust and keep citing the Costa 1600 applications for one vacancy etc.

there are very few people who have no debt. No mortgage,no rent to pay,no credit cards bills etc.

Do I agree with many many sp on benefits? Partly, but not in all instances. It has become easier to take no responsibility for how many kids you have, no choose to mess around at school and then claim with 3 kids that it is not worth you working.