Justifying long term SAHM to DDs?

handcream, most women don't have a choice, really.

I think most women have to work, no? Not many families can live of one income these days.

If I did not work we could not even pay basic bills.

Well handcream though it is unpalatable to me as a feminist the argument that women entering the workforce has driven down pay is fairly strong. If you double the number of workers available employers will take advantage of it and drive wages and therefore taxes payable on those wages down.

Brave thanks for clarifying - for some reason it came up on its own not in the context of a reply. :)

I find it curious that SAHPs are advised not to make a virtue out of SAH if they do so primarily because of financial necessity, and yet WOH is very often presented as being a virtue, despite also usually being a financial necessity.

This is interesting because it may be my cultural background (as well as some comments online) but I find the assumption to be SAHM= great mum, wonderful! and WM= poor thing, has to do so to make ends meet OR she's an unnatural child-neglecter.
The assumption seems to be win the lotto = give up work in a flash.

On a personal level sits uncomfortably with me as too simple because of the nature of my job - as mentioned before, it's within the 'caring' professions and in my experience many colleagues have masses of moral purpose because they are mums and want to make society better for their DCs.

Just the casual "if you had a 6 figure income, you'd quit" type assumption.
Or the "but your DCs will be cold, lonely, raised in a badly run creche' assumption.

This may well be cultural though. I come from quite a Catholic/traditional background.

Surely if all women stayed at home the country would be bankrupt. Someone has to pay for the NHS, schooling etc.

squizita, you are attacking me on a point I have not made.

I don't say SAHM is golden or idealised or the best way, just say how it has evolved. I am not talking about victorian times or work houses or mills. I am talking about the fact we are mammals (so historical in as : since we exist, not since the advent of modern society).

I don't think women should stay at home,a nd neither did I say that anywhere.

I do think (office) careers/work in general are overrated. This is true for men and women. And unpaid work (looking after your own kids) is under appreciated.

This is illustrated by some posters saying you are not worth anything in society unless you pay tax.

I am not using an "it's natural" argument to say women should stay at home. I am also not saying that women should stay at home (where have I said that?). I was just responding to a poster saying she is baffled as to why it is so often the woman staying at home.

I don't find this baffling, I can see how this happens (this does not mean this is how I want things to be, can you appreciate the difference?)

Thinkaboutit Yes, my DH has had (women as well as men) laugh in his face. Why? Because when he was a lad his dad worked shifts ending about 4am. He would then sleep until early afternoon, so as far as DH was concerned upon returning from school, he had a SAHD. He thinks of this as normal. His mum was a SAHM (very community/church involved so often out in the evenings) and therefore his 'normal' is quite different to the norm it seems.

Other people have said the most awful offensive things about this being weird when he talks about this being a great childhood. Why? Logically, it sounds wonderful (if only it were possible for us) for their whole family!

But it's 'different'. So his mum was 'bad' for having hobbies in the evening and his dad 'weird' for cooking dinner and pushing the hoover round.

No problem, squizita. I dislike arguments that pit women against other women intensely, and normally steer well clear of them. This one was in FWR, where I normally hang out though.

Morethan - of course one must do what makes them happy, there are many ocassions where I have cursed work and my inability to attend something at the school in the middle of the day but between us we manage. I have a supportive DH who does as much as me around the house and I know that is unusual. TBH - if he hadnt had been like this I would probably not had children.

However as a women I am supporting myself and contributing to the economy. Why some seem to think their choice isnt funded by 'someone' is puzzling.

I find it curious that SAHPs are advised not to make a virtue out of SAH if they do so primarily because of financial necessity, and yet WOH is very often presented as being a virtue, despite also usually being a financial necessity.

Personally I am of the 'work to live' not 'live to work' mindset. I appreciate that for some people their careers are a vocation and they feel differently but large numbers of people do work which they could not and would not do if it was unpaid.

This is not to say that there can't be benefits to paid employment other than the wage. Some work has intrinsic value, it may be stimulating, challenging, sociable. Maybe work has helped you gain new skills or knowledge which you value. Maybe it helps other people and you can see that it is helping to make the world in small part a better place.

On the other hand, there are plenty of jobs which do none of these things. They need doing, or are profitable to someone to be done, but they aren't fulfilling beyond the value of having a paid job which gives one money to do other things.

And of course the benefits (other than income) of a paid job can be achieved by doing unpaid work or by other means.

Whilst women ought to have the same job opportunities and pay as men, I don't think that the desired goal of that should be to have two adults both working hugely long hours just to be able to afford the basics of life. I don't think that work is that virtuous. I think we should be trying to bring down the cost of living and increase flexible working so that women AND men have more choices about their work/life balance. There ought to be room in people's lives for unpaid work because it is not valueless. Parenting, caring, volunteering, learning, gaining skills, creating etc should have value in society, because they are important.

Not that I should need to say it in the feminist section, but of course educating women is still important if they don't do paid work for a period of time, even a long period of time. It gives them choices and helps them in the unpaid work they do, which society at large benefits from.

Its fabulous coming home to the smells of home cooked food but its even better if your 16 year old has the life skills to be the one providing it

Sabrina Sorry, my bad. I misunderstood entirely. :)

If we show others , especially our kids, that demanding things be different can work, then things can improve for everyone.

Yay!

I took 6 months off when I had DC2. Partly for medical reasons. It didn't harm my career at all. For DC 3 I was working in US and only got 12 weeks. I've made various career choices since then to fit my family circumstances and have no doubt that this has limited my options although I still fall comfortably in the earnings bracket set out by OP. To me, those were sensible balanced decisions which enable me to be pretty flexible. As a result of my decisions others - male as well as female - in my organisation have been able to do the same since I set a successful precedent. People who think working parents have to be in an office 9-5 5 days a week are out of touch with the way the world of work is changing. It's a shame. If we show others , especially our kids, that demanding things be different can work, then things can improve for everyone.

I don't have DDs, and I am no longer a SAHM, so I can't really answer the OP.

However, my Mother was a SAHM - my Dad earned a good salary and she didn't think that she should work. She thought it would be beneath her, or would be perceived negatively by her friends and acquaintances. She was a complete snob. She was also very bored and unfulfilled. Yes, she did keep the house tidy (with a cleaner) and the garden was immaculate, and we always had a cooked meal...but she didn't do a lot else. Never collected us from school, took us to activities. She was odd and had a lot of issues.

So my point is that my experience was quite different from the wonderful world of SAHM as portrayed (probably very accurately) by many posters.

I have a good education and choose to work. I had 3 years off (2 children) and was well and truely ready to go back to work. I was bored. If I had DDs I would tell them the same as my sons...get a good education and you will have options. I would expect that they would probably want to work in a career that they find interesting...and the education opens the door to the interesting career.

squizita, I struck out "raise" and replaced it with "stay at home with" because I realised it sounded like I was saying working parents don't 'raise' their children - which of course, was not my intention.

I agee Mmm - it does depend on personality. However saying that you can make him a Lemsip or passing the sick bucket doesnt really justify staying at home forever does it?

What seems to be indicated by some is that their partner is paying their tax (!!) and if the relationship breaks down - well they can always go on benefits...

There doesnt seem to be any thought given to the fact that they are relying on either one person to fund their lifestyle or the government.

Bravepotato Paid employment is a relatively new phenomenon. Education for everyone is a relatively new phenomenon. Women working before kids is a relatively new phenomenon.

We are dealing in a world full of relatively new phenomena, the debate is about how we manage in this brave new world.

Beyond the first stage of maternity leave I am baffled as to why it continues to be the woman who is at home looking after children. I am baffled that it is so bizarre to image the OP written with a different gender - because the idea that a father would exit the workforce to stay at home is so rare. Why? Once there is no biological reason (around the 6 month mark in my personal experience) I see no reason why a 6 month break should knock earning power so much that it almost always makes sense for a woman to stay at home.

I took 9 months off work and it probably set me back about 18 months in total. Yet it would seem normal to everyone if I had stayed at home and truly revolutionary if DP had stopped work to swap with me. The pressure this creates on women effectively negates the illusion of choice. that is the problem. The fact that we are all beating each other up instead of challenging this is what baffles me.

Thinkaboutit - I mentioned upthread that that's basically what DH and I do. I got sworn at.

My dp pays more tax doing his job(which I facilitate)than 2 on the same salary split(who also get CB and childcare help).

Hmmm many,many working mothers(and fathers)aren't paying tax,get tax credits and have help with childcare so not only contribute sfa but cost the country more.

When I go back to work it will be under the generous tax threshold(thus paying no tax) and I will be claiming for childcare on top.I will be costing the country more.

Bottle feeding and breast pumps are a relatively recent invention, and for centuries, millennia, ten thousands of years, women (like all female mammals) have always taken "time out" to care for their newborns, and breastfeed them

And unfortunately some had no choice over when they stopped - either carrying them to the mill or farm when they would prefer to bond, or kept within the home with a large family because that is what society/husband demanded. In fact a lot carried their babies to unpleasant, dangerous workplaces where thy started work as soon as they could walk and follow basic instructions.
The idea of the historical, adoring 'at home mother' is a Victorian myth of middle class fiction.
The key difference is that for most women, the work was drudgery not what we would call a 'career' with opportunities, safety and interest for the woman herself.

Are modern men who want to be SAHDs (or just quite hands on when home) unnatural then? Because for centuries they'd be working or marauding with swords.

Office work and carriers are overrated IMO
if we're using the 'it's natural' argument, I was unaware FEMALE hands evolved for desk work..?
You do know that many, many women don't just work in an office.
You know, that overrated, unnatural work (and I am going for female dominated jobs here, so as not to be too shocking and unnatural) nursing, teaching, social work, animal husbandry, beauty and health etc'.
With those careers (in contrast to data entry etc') the reward isn't financial alone, is it?

Or would you, in RL, ask a pediatric nurse or a SEN therapist about their job being 'overrated' if they had kids? Several of my colleagues specifically trained for these jobs BECAUSE having kids changed their priorities... they started thinking of the issues and caring about them more and it MADE them want a particular career.

I think our children are glad to see us happy and living a lifestyle that makes us happy and content with life.
For us that means relaxed, chilled and not chasing around like headless chickens, juggling everything hoping it will all work out in the end.
I never wanted anybody to determine what I did with my time and when, so working for an employer was completely out.
I like to come and go as I please and not be answerable to others, outside my family.
Some people find their identity through a career or job, they like to be referred to as the job they do, others find this boring and unfulfilling.
We are all different and have different values.

more income tax*

Really a 16 year old rushing through the door to see you, telling you all about the girls they have met, their fears for the future. are you joking!

This struck a chord.
Well, he didn't actually rush through the door, but last night my teenage ds did start telling me all about the girl he has met, and then about something he was worried about re himself for the future. But it wouldn't have mattered if I had spent the day working in the home or doing paid work outside, as long as I was physically there to talk to at some point during the day and had a bit of time to listen. And it's personality as well - my dd wouldn't have told me about her boyfriends.