Justifying long term SAHM to DDs?

retro - sorry my computer was hi-jacked so my post was waiting to go for ages and I did miss you say you made that choice.

But don't you think it is rare that this is the case?

It isn't insulting to say that structural inequality limits choices for women. It is naive to imagine that when out of 100 SAHP only 1 is a man then the 99 women making the 'choice' to stay at home are making it completely independently of external pressures, expectations and structural forces.

Actually deep I would question both a SAHM and a WOHM as to how they did their choice.
It's very easy to get influence in our decisions by people around. Some will be influenced by the 'nurturing' side of a mum. Others will be influenced by the 'you shouldn't be a weight to the society'.

As a general rule though it's women who stay at home in the uk. It's not always the case in Scandinavian countries. So it's worth asking why as a general rule things happen this way here.

I agree with teaching your dc that an education isn't the be all and end all if they aren't academic.
My dc have also learned the importance of not relying on an employer to provide an income and are very good at finding work themselves.
My eldest is about to buy a window cleaning round, he will do this alongside his other job and is a back up in case of redundancy. He hopes to be able to provide work for ds2 who also works full time evenings.

I would say to my DDs that money is not important as long as you have enough to pay the bills and have the things that are important to you and your family. There is no glory in collating more and more money. As long as there is enough money coming in from somewhere then it is not necessary for both parents to work. They can both work if they want but if they would prefer for one parent to spend their time with their children then they should. It is not saintly to work and work until you have amassed yourself a fortune. Sometimes your time is better spent elsewhere. I would also tell my DDs and DSs that they should look at whether it would be better for them or their OH to be the SAHP. I really don't understand why people look down on those who have sacrificed a second wage to spend their time looking after their children.

I would say to my DDs that money is not important as long as you have enough to pay the bills and have the things that are important to you and your family. There is no glory in collating more and more money. As long as there is enough money coming in from somewhere then it is not necessary for both parents to work. They can both work if they want but if they would prefer for one parent to spend their time with their children then they should. It is not saintly to work and work until you have amassed yourself a fortune. Sometimes your time is better spent elsewhere. I would also tell my DDs and DSs that they should look at whether it would be better for them or their OH to be the SAHP. I really don't understand why people look down on those who have sacrificed a second wage to spend their time looking after their children.

almond I am not saying that some people can't. But most 60~70yo I know wouldn't be able to.

I've also notice that you are referring to academia. I was thinking business environment, big corporation, IT and engineering etc..,
Of course you always learn at 50! But if you have to fully retrain as a 50yo to carry on working in engineering then you would be employed as a newly graduate. Difficult to get a career going in that situation, esp if on the top you are asked to work shift or extensively travel, both if which I was asked to do.

So yes some people will be able to but I doubt that most people will.

Think did you not read my post where I said we did just that.

There it goes again sahm having to justify their choices,the assumption that they are weak and bullied into being a sahp etc.It's insulting.

Would you ask a wm if they had had discussions re their choices?

Retro
Auto enrolment in work based pension schemes are now mandatory for anyone age over 22 and who earns more than 10k per year.

I volunteered to help at school, went on trips and helped at Brownies and Guides - as a WOHP.
So did DP.
Many WOHP volunteered and were often able to bring their work skills into school- one of my friends is an Ecologist and set up a wildlife area at school with a thriving pond.
Im not sure where these things aren't seen as useful or important - although most of the people I know who volunteer do it because they enjoy and get personal satisfaction from it rather than because they need to be valued.

I think many of us rightly or wrongly think of women naturally as nurturers. From a historical or anthropological angle we do tend to see women repeatedly as the primary caregivers, so I am not convinced it is a modern construct.

I do know my OH is crap at looking after kids! Part of the reason I became a SAHM.

DaVinic, I know plenty of SAHMs who have done that, including my own mother, various female university lecturers and other women who are succeeding in careers.

I entirely disagree that a thirty year old is more capable of handling stress than an older person! Why? Thirty year olds already have a load of stress from family life that work adds to. Older people have more freedom to focus on other things, including work. My youngest will be an adult in five years. I will be far less stressed and more able to travel than a parent in their thirties with a bunch of young kids.

As for technology moving on, there is no difference between somebody learning how to use a form of technology in their twenties or their fifties.
It isn't about a 'career break.' It is about starting in a new career in your fifties, as if you were twenty.

think YY to that.
Why us it always women? Why do we talk about choice when these aren't really choices, but have more to do with the pressure society puts on us? Eg mothers are better at looking after dcs than men etc...

retro I agree that volunteering is essential in our society in the uk. Basically because we have a government that has decided to rely on the 'big society' whilst cutting budget and asking women to go back to work .
All these people are doing important work but are never seen as 'important' or useful.

The problem is when you do all these things, don't work but then need to go back to work for whatever reason and find that no employer is actually appreciating what you have done because you did do as a volunteer, therefore it wasn't done in a professional way.
If the issue is to explain and show to your dcs the importance of the contribution you make, then it's a different issue.

But Capsium you keep saying SAHP but the vast majority of carers and SAHP are women, the question is why is all this 'free' work left to women to do? Why do women bear this responsibility?

There is a lot of talk about choice but the truth is that for so many reasons choice is an illusion.

To those parents who aren't currently working - how many had a serious discussion about whether it would be the father or mother who stopped working for a while?

I hear lots of people talking about 'my choice' or 'our choice' but the decision tree was:

1. should I stop working to SAH with the kids for a while?

not

1. should one of us stop work to stay at home with the kids for a while?
2. who should it be - father or mother?

And even if it was that way round and 99% of the time people made a conscious choice that the mum should SAH then we would need to be asking why that was always the answer...

almond I don't agree with your analysis about people working longer so they have a career then.
For one technology changes so quickly now that their skills would be out of date after years being unemployed. I know mines into first career are.
Second, as a society we don't value older people which means that career advancement will always be given first to younger people.
And third at 60~70yo you will have list a lot if stamina compare to a 30yo. So when a 30yo will be happy to put more hours, do more travelling or will handle stress easily, it won't be the same for the older person.

So, develop a career between 50 and 70yo instead of your 30s? I don't think that's possible.

When I say 'idle life' I am not talking about a patent who looks after their dcs, whether it's a baby it a primary school dc.
I am talking about the very few parents who don't work but have a cleaner for the house, a nanny/after school club/whatever system and will put their own socialising/life before their dcs.

Having being a SAHM I know very well that it's not an 'idle life' when you actually do give your full attention to the dcs.

I was the same capsium, at the school almost every day- they would phone me up if short of helpers for trips etc.

One of the valuable lessons my children have learned is how not to be dependent on employers to earn money. My children (14 and 16) earn £100-£150 a month, and have learned that from their saavy SAHM.

Yes Capsium exactly.

I was on the committee of the Outstanding pre- school many wp send their dc to,have volunteered in school and will be going to a meeting re our local library which is being dismantled- they want volunteers to keep it going.

So when Dave and co whiter on re sahp not wanting to get on he might want to remember that his "big society" kind of rests on non working people who actually do very much want to get on and are hard working.

Yes, I was just assuming that my DD would stay in the North, buy a reasonably priced house, have kids in her twenties and then have a choice of returning to work full or part time or being a SAHM. If she is single and therefore on a lower income, presumably there will still be tax credits for childcare etc, and if not, family will help her out.

The issues will be generally the same. Hopefully if anything they might improve if people stop being less sexist to older women reentering the work force. If you are at work from 50 to 70, then you have as much time to develop a career as a person from 20-40. Society should more widely recognise that some people have their major career development and commitment later in life.

Bamboo - which is why edcuation is so important to the young. Issue is they see others not working for whatever reason (and lets not get into whether SAHM is better or worse than WM's) and its difficult to say, well I choose to not work but you will have to..

My work doesnt require me to communte into London anymore. I did then when younger but my company offers home working as the norm and although I am out at least 50% of the time visiting clients my time is my own. It does mean I often have to work at the weekend but just admin type paperwork which can often be done in front of the TV

I really really know I am extremely lucky to have this sort of position which I why I wont give it up.

Bamboo many workers aren't contributing to state pensions let alone a private pension.

Many sahp will have set up private pensions prior which they'll contribute to again after.Some of us shock horror may well be paying into pensions as a sahp.

Where is all this 'Big Society' if everybody is busy, busy, busy, up to their limits working (paid) full time?

And I guess there will always be parents who need to SAH, for one reason or another.... what would happen to those they care for?

" House prices in this country are beserk" - but that's in the London and the SE with the deluge of foreign buyers inflating the prices.

In other parts of the country house prices are fine.

The days of SAHPs are completely numbered. Our generation will be the last to have this debate at all. It won't be an issue for our daughters as they will all have to work. House prices in this country are beserk and there is no way that we can support households where just one person chooses to work, their pensions alone will need to be funded. What on earth are all these people planning with their lives? If they have not developed a career whilst younger they will be in a dead end job between 50-70 trying to rack up their NI contributions. We are all facing a long life time of work. Unless you are among the tiny elite.

Ubik, OP can say what she likes and post where she likes, but it is still annoying.

You might want to start with the Fawcett society if you think feminism is usually all about sex and porn. They are probably the best known feminist campaigning group in the UK.

I think it is pretty well known that feminists were and are instrumental in setting up a large part of women's ability to gain wider employment opportunities, be supported at home or combine the two through their work on employment law, development aid, NGOs, benefits and taxation mechanisms and so on.

Another place you could start with is a GCSE geography text book. I am helping DS revise at the moment and it is covered in that for a variety of different countries.