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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERF

437 replies

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/05/2014 00:11

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

OP posts:
CrotchMaven · 05/06/2014 22:33

I've always thought that logically RadFems and Transwomen should be perfect allies

Me too. When I am being charitable, it baffles me why they are not.

NotAgainTrevor · 05/06/2014 22:25

I think the current situation is dreadful, TERF and transphobic is thrown around liberally and used to silence discussion. On the one hand it is said that people get to define who they are and on the other female born women are told that they cannot define who they are and if they try they are transphobic bigots.

I have been raped as have many women I know. Even those that don't consider themselves to have been assaulted have tales of slaps on the bum, groping of breasts, men exposing themselves and having erections rubbed up against them in public places, a real horror is that most don't consider themselves to have been assaulted as it happens so often as to be normal. I have no wish to share women's private space with people with penises. If forced too I would stop using the swimming pool, the gym etc, my life would be restricted and I would be marginalised. It is not transphobia saying this it is a genuine fear and distrust with many men caused by their actions. I don't believe that a genuine Transwoman would assault me, but given that trans activists tell us that anyone who says they are a woman is and should be able to use female spaces how the hell are we supposed to tell the difference between the genuine, the fetishests and the blokes just doing it because they can?

It is often argued by trans activists that there is no evidence for this, but what about Chris Hambrook? What about the transwomen who have been prosecuted and imprisoned for rape? It is all well and good saying that they are not really trans after the fact but how the hell are we supposed to tell the difference before? Is it just to marginalise many, many women by allowing men with penises into their 'safe spaces' is it just to put women at the risk of rape and sexual assault because we are not allowed to question if they are genuine or not? If you say that it is fair to do this then logically you must be saying that females are lesser beings with fewer rights.

The only solution I can see is that we have separate unisex areas with closed cubicles. I can understand why a transwoman who has spent her life feeling different and just wanting to belong would find being placed in a category of 'other' desperately upsetting but at some points there are no solutions to fit everybody. Even if the 1 in 4 females that have been assaulted are the only ones who object to male bodied people in their private space how can it be acceptable to marginalise 12.5% of the population to account for the feelings of 0.03% (of which M2T will make up a lower number). No matter how unpalatable some may find it when there is no better solution we have to play the numbers game, this is not wishing death on all transwomen, as many activists would claim, this is finding the best solution to the safety and security of all.

I've always thought that logically RadFems and Transwomen should be perfect allies, break down gender stereotypes and allow people just to be, able to express themselves however they choose without fear of being outed or attacked. Those that still found themselves still definitely within the wrong body could have reassignment surgery if it would ease the pain. But without the stigma and judgement attached. That we are not allies but diametrically and viciously opposed suggests that there is another factor at play here. One that is dangerous for women and seeks to undo the protections we have fought for and to subjugate us further.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 20:51

I remember some fairly sordid threads years ago - dragon butter, pegging etc.

Some of my favourite feminists have come from faith backgrounds originally - Sonia Johnson and Mary Daly spring to mind. Although I think in the '70s and '80s there was more room for feminist/woman-centred thought within even quite conservative religions.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 19:08

it's quite ironic really as most people new to MN have found their way here via a penis beaker..

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SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 18:44

I quite like the idea that Mumsnet doesn't get stuck behind a firewall as it's so wholesome. Subversive somehow.

This thread is fairly complex as it goes into detail about opposing ideologies and probably isn't the best intro to feminism. Although if this hasn't put you off, you'll go far.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 17:18

Feel free to start a 101 thread. Blackcurrants did one once, it was a good thread.

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 17:12

Wow.I have soooo much to learn. The information you have so kindly posted leaves me fascinated and thirsty for me, however I do realise it is unfair to expect that from this specific thread.
I am seriously considering starting a Feminist 101 For the sweetly clueless thread!!
(Wording may just need some adjustment methinks)
Yes, religion is the issue.. trying to get a little braver day by day.

I feel humbled by everyone who has taken the time to respond to a poster who could, on the face of it and some would agree in truth to be a PITA.

You have widened my world.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 15:48

I would tend to use Black with a capital. There's a definition here blackfeministsmanchester.wordpress.com/about/ or on blackfeminists.org. That's the definition that comes to mind when I hear 'black'.
I instinctively shy away from abbreviations as I think they invisiblise the characteristic they refer to, almost.
But if someone prefers a different term to refer to themselves, I'll use that.

SuperLoudPoppingAction · 05/06/2014 15:48

I would tend to use Black with a capital. There's a definition here blackfeministsmanchester.wordpress.com/about/ or on blackfeminists.org. That's the definition that comes to mind when I hear 'black'.
I instinctively shy away from abbreviations as I think they invisiblise the characteristic they refer to, almost.
But if someone prefers a different term to refer to themselves, I'll use that.

almondcakes · 05/06/2014 15:28

RFFU, I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think we have a good set of terms for ethnicity, and in 99% of UK conversations I would assume black meant Afro-Caribbean. I also didn't know until recently that some British people who have come directly from Africa (or have parents who did) don't like the term black.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 15:21

Thanks for that almondcakes, it would never have even occurred to me that "black" would be used to describe anyone not of African decent.

I see what you mean about poc not covering Eastern Europeans who are all discriminated against in the UK too

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almondcakes · 05/06/2014 15:11

Black has been used as a political term in the UK. Newham Monitoring Project and Southall Black Sisters both use black to include Asian people.

The 'official term' is probably BME women - black and minority ethnic women.

I don't think WOC is offensive, but I think it doesn't really work to explain the situation with racism in the UK - UKIP and impact on Polish people isn't about their physical appearance, we haven't had Jim Crow etc.

There is an explanation of the different terms in the UK, including black as a political term here:
www.universities-scotland.ac.uk/raceequalitytoolkit/terminology.htm

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 14:50

But black doesn't really work if you are describing say the situation of people of African and Asian decent in the UK? We do say black as well, but it's more specific, if I were only referring to African Americans.

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BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 05/06/2014 14:45

NAMALT - not all men are like that. Used a bit tongue in cheek.

calmet · 05/06/2014 14:40

I use the word black as a political term. But I see more and more youngw omen using POC. I guess it is just one more Americanisation of our language.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 14:32

almondccakes what would be the best term to use other than WOC in the UK? I am American so it's my default. I like the word because it describes the collective experiences of people who aren't white in America but also doesn't focus on what they are not iyswim? Is there an equivalent I could use?Or should I carry on using it? Don't know if it is offensive here or not.. I don't get political in my every day life so unlikely that I will pick it up that way.

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ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 14:27

Dunno. It's all about Secret Squirrel. But at the risk of looking stupid, I've copy and pasted some basic feminist acronyms and terms from the link above.

    First wave feminism : the advocacy of basic legal (de jure) equality: suffragists, property inheritance and contractual agency rights. Historically a movement for wives of the propertied classes, but a broader movement today in those countries where women are still denied de jure equality.
    Second wave feminism : working for the implementation/enforcement of de jure equalities but also concerned with de facto (unofficial) inequalities: finding the political in the personal and fighting for changes in long-standing sexist prejudices and traditions – socioeconomic equality not just legal equality, and for more than just the propertied classes.
    Third wave feminism: a challenge to essentialist views of femininity (as biologically reductive) and feminisms (as homogenously directed) combined with an emphasis on the intersectionality of oppressions.

MRA: male rights activist – a term which once referred more generally to Men’s Movements but which has come to refer mostly to the most stridently anti-feminist

patriarchy: one of the most misunderstood critical-theory concepts ever, often wilfully misunderstood. Patriarchy is an ancient and ongoing social system based on traditions of elitism (a hierarchy of inferiorities), privilege and the subjugation of women via strict gender expectations which constrain individualist expressions. Some societies are more patriarchal than others, but patriarchal social traditions are universal in human societies. [more in the Patriarchy FAQ] [back to top]

PHMT: Patriarchy Hurts Men Too. Men are also constrained from full individualist expression by strict gender expectations. (Corollary: FBMT – Feminism benefits men too –

PUA: Pick Up Artist. Sexual predator as serial scorekeeping seducer. [link from theriomorph] The goal of PUA as a sport is to defeat the minds so inconveniently attached to ladybits rather than treat women as people who could enjoy sexual fun together with egalitarian men. A growing movement designed to persuade both men and women that this reduction of gender relations to a hunt for sex is a reasonable and sane model for human interaction. [back to top]
privilege: advantages that some groups have over other groups in the social hierarchy. Privilege is not taken by the individual, it is given by society. Some privileges are situational and temporary (parent over child, employer over employee) and serve a pragmatic social purpose but other privileges are societal and traditional and serve to perpetuate elitism. Some elitist privileges are de jure (e.g. South African racial apartheid, rules against the ordination of women as priests) but most are de facto (informal discrimination against “others” in the workplace, education, financial transactions (e.g. exclusionary “mates’ rates”) and social recognition/reward). [more in the Male Privilege FAQ] [back to top]

radfem: radical feminist [back to top]
rape culture: a constellation of behaviours and attitudes embedded into patriarchal society. These attitudes, socialised from birth and often wielded unconsciously, enable and encourage the subordination of women by maintaining a environment that is pervasively hostile and threatening to women. The behaviours include a spectrum of acts which function to keep women in an object role and perpetuate their fear. They include (but are not limited to) certain aspects of “chivalry”, victim-blaming, leering, intimidation, sexual harrassment and coercion, domestic violence, assault and rape. (defn from lauredhel) [more: Biting Beaver] [back to top]
sex-pos: strictly, a term used in the debate about the balance between harms and freedoms for women in the commercialisation of female sexuality – sex-positive feminist, as opposed to anti-pornography feminist (unfortunately “sex-pos” is used more loosely by people unaware of the history of the sex-industry debate).  Both sex-positive and anti-pornography are overly-simplistic terms, as they imply that their opponents are respectively sex-negative or pro-pronography/prostitution (pro-censorship is another one thrown around), when generally everybody involved on all sides is holding more nuanced positions. [back to top]
strawfeminist: a false construction, created to scare people away from the juicy crops of equality, equity and the end of female subjugation. Derived from the classic fallacy in formal logic known as the “strawman fallacy” : a strawfeminist is a strawman argument applied against feminists. (See our “spot the strawfeminist” category) [back to top]
Waves of feminism: See above [link] [back to top]
OP posts:
almondcakes · 05/06/2014 13:57

Page one - WOC. Woman of colour. A term used in North America to refer to all women other than non-Hispanic white women.

MRA- Men's Rights Activist. A person who believes that men experience sexism and that they need their own movement to address this so that men as a group have more rights than they currently do.

Cis-gender. A person whose gender identity 'matches' the biological sex that they were defined as being at birth.

Beachcomber · 05/06/2014 13:53

You're welcome. Shame you cannot access it. Is the lack of access religion related by any chance? (No pressure to answer that)

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 13:48

sorry forgot to say I cannot access that wordpress site, but I appreciate your time and effort to try and help

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 13:46

Really no, its hard to explain, a system rather than a country iykwim

posts are disjointed, sorry

useryourillusion · 05/06/2014 13:37

Right, now I don't have someone sitting next to me I can go on.... not sure
where to start.
Thank you to those who have responded firstly, I can see that the question I asked is indeed vast. Being a noob, I guess I need to clarify....
The reasons I have not "bothered" - a particular choice of vocabulary positively ripe with implication imho - to read the thread are that I came upon it, thought it looked intriguing, read a few post on the early pages then realised I simply do not understand the terms/acronyms employed. Am I correct in surmising that this enourmous chasm in my knowledge would mean that I really cannot follow the discussion closely?
One of my next steps is to go through the thread extremely carefully, pick out the terms/acronyms I do not understand and then find a means of unpicking them - however that may be with my limited resource. That will happen as soon as I can organise it.
Many thanks for the definitions already received. To clarify, I hopefully have the vocabulary/IQ of the average 8 yr old. My lack is in resource and exposure to the wider world, that is why that parallel was drawn

must go

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 05/06/2014 13:14

Are you posting from a country with limited internet access?

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Beachcomber · 05/06/2014 12:46

You are going to have to tell us specifically which terms you don't understand. The language of gender politics is vast. It does merit a thread of its own IMO as this thread is a specific and on going discussion of feminist analysis of transgenderism.

I'm have no desire to put you off learning and you haven't annoyed me - I'm just pointing out that the task you set us is vast, interrupting an established discussion and will need to involve some effort on your part.

A site like this might help you if you can access it.

finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/

almondcakes · 05/06/2014 11:58

Why don't you just tell us what words you want defining. I can't know without you telling me. I had to look up the meaning of some of the words you used, so it isn't true that you need all vocabulary beyond the scope of an eight year old explaining to you.