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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

TERF

437 replies

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 17/05/2014 00:11

So I have seen this expression a lot lately... and TERF gets thown out a lot when feminists are discussing things that are only capable of affecting biologically female women.

And I just can't get my head around it tbh. I don't think feminism should exclude people I think it helps everyone. I get really upset when white feminists forget about WOC or Lesbians, or other minority groups because the point of feminism is to make women's lives better. SO if there an issue that is unique to black women (for example) it is still all of our issue and should be dealt with by all feminist.

So if trans women want in on feminism why do they think can exclude the majority of women by saying we can't discuss our issues? And if trans people want to be accepted and have their rights championed by feminism is that fair since the majority of feminists aren't also suffering those same problems? Is it not a huge double standard?

Abortion rights and prenatal care and contraceptive health, vaginal rape. Are these things off the table now for feminism?

Am I getting it wrong, missing something? It feels to me like male privilege, telling women what they can and can't talk about..and doing so in a way where they actually feel guilty as though they have done something wrong.

OP posts:
WhentheRed · 07/06/2014 00:52

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WhentheRed · 07/06/2014 00:50

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FloraFox · 07/06/2014 00:49

notagain sorry cross post. I'm sorry that happened to you. I read to hashtag too and found it rage inducing. One woman actually said any men should be in shelters etc unless one of them had actually raped one of the women there. It's the logical extension to the argument but you would think someone would say, "hang on, maybe I should think about this" rather than ploughing on.

FloraFox · 07/06/2014 00:46

notagain now I see what you mean, sorry for being slow on the uptake. I'd agree with Beach that validation is driving this as much or more than safety concerns. Validation is at the root of most trans activism. This separates it from every other social justice movement. Gay people don't demand I validate their gayness, nor black people their blackness. That would be silly, they know that they are who they are. Other social justice movements targeted people with power to right their wrongs, they did not exercise activism by screaming at women, particularly lesbians and radfems on social media or blocking other people from discussing their oppression.

The levels of rage on display are shocking. And these are people who are supposedly no risk to women and girls?

NotAgainTrevor · 07/06/2014 00:42

Sorry, I should not have come online after a few drinks as I should know how much this crap upsets me. The horrific double standards just get to me so much.

I really hope I haven't upset other women as I actually care about how you all feel.

Off to make a cup of chamomile and get some sleep.

NotAgainTrevor · 07/06/2014 00:32

Just been flicking around twitter and reading the #NoUnexpectedPenises tag is giving me the rage. I was 'properly' raped as well as being 'not really' raped -well maybe but he was a friend and I must have led him on, WHY DO YOU WANT TO RUIN HIS LIFE raped, yeah that sort of crap. But I should just fucking get over it as women have penises too and I'm clearly a hideous bigoted transphobe for not wanting male bodies in female only spaces, do I not care about their feelings??

I've been reading Gia Milanovich's feed and it is giving me the rage even more, she has boy children therefore she has no right to not want strange penises In her presence, she is married to a man with a penis therefore she has no right to not want other penises in her presence! It is so dripping in rape culture and victim blaming and it makes me sick. Someone even links Brian Cox cos that'll tell the little bigot, I'm sure he came straight home to give her some discipline. It is the old you've had sex with someone who was not your owner husband, therefore you will shag anyone you dirty ho and cannot be raped. You married him therefore he owns you and can do what ever he wants you have given him unconditional consent forever regardless of feelings.

It makes me so sick that women support this shit and dare to call themselves feminists.

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 07/06/2014 00:30

"have given much of a thought as to the repercussions and risks to girls and women. Because that isn't their focus. Which should give pause for thought considering that they claim to be women...."

Beachcomber · 07/06/2014 00:16

I don't think transactivists (and I mean transactivists, not all transpeople) have given much of a thought as to the repercussions and risks to girls and women. Because that isn't their focus. Which should give pause for thought considering that they claim to be women....

It's mostly about narcissistic validation. AKA men's rights over women's rights.

NotAgainTrevor · 06/06/2014 23:07

Apologies if it was not clear Flora, I'm just pointing out the contradictory nature of many activist statements. If transwomen need protection then why do activists not protest for secure spaces for transwomen in the current climate, opening up women's spaces for all places everyone at increased risk. If femininity is innate then I would expect the majority of women to understand that. The cis men won't wear a dress argument does not wash, in addition there is no requirement for dresses or anything else, we're told simply feeling like a woman should be good enough no matter how they present. So we cannot question anyone without being transphobic Confused.

I just hate the whole situation, I worked with and am still friends with a lovely transwoman. She's kind, respectful and just wants to get on with her life quietly and free from abuse. Instead she has had to distance herself from many groups where she may find support due to the adversarial nature and flat out women hating which seems to abound. But when it comes down to the fight I have to fight on the side of women and children that need protection from violent men.

Gah, is saying 'violence against women' another way of sanitising language so as not to upset men?

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 06/06/2014 18:12

I think notagain was agreeing with you flora.

Can you imagine how stressfull it must have to go out and not be able to use a public toilet? If you had an emergency, or were unwell. or had after 12 children and no pelvic floor.

OP posts:
FloraFox · 06/06/2014 17:52

is what protects women*

I'm not sure what you mean, notagain but my concern is about women and the harm caused to women. Lots of men are at risk of male violence, that's not a problem for women to solve and certainly not by throwing open the doors to female safe space.

On your point above about not going swimming, there is a plaque in Mornington Crescent marking the site of the first women's public loo. I used to roll my eyes when I saw it but when I gave it a bit more thought, it became clear that the availability of safe space was a very important step to enable women to leave home and participate in public life. We are seriously in danger of closing off opportunities in public life for women and it is so-called feminists who are leading the charge. It's astonishing.

I saw this on twitter:

twitter.com/GIDWatch/status/474536743069577217/photo/1

followed up by lots of women and "feminists" defending the person who posted this saying the person was provoked and the woman deserved it.

ReallyFuckingFedUp · 06/06/2014 15:00

What the fuckerry is that donkey?! That's infuriating.

Fuck it. Take "woman" of the stalls. Seriously. If this is just some sort of linguistic issue... get rid of the word woman. I don't want to cause an issue for women with penises, so to avoid confusion, let's just put a picture of a vulva on the door. Is that Ok, are we all happy with that?

OP posts:
DonkeySkin · 06/06/2014 14:35

The "answer" was that given men's exalted status, no "cis" man is going to put himself through the stigma of putting on a dress or calling himself a woman just so he can get into women's bathrooms.

Ahem.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2012/10/07/olympia-wa-school-officials-state-gender-identity-provision-overrides-title-ix-equality-for-girls-swim-teams/

NotAgainTrevor · 06/06/2014 14:32

What I do find so shocking is it does not adequately protect transwomen from overwhelmingly male abuse either. Everyone gets chucked under the bus for the sake of the few that require validation above all else.

calmet · 06/06/2014 13:49

That is a shockingly naive answer.
Transactivists don't tend to answer this question, because it can't be answered, except by restricting who can access women's spaces.

FloraFox · 06/06/2014 12:36

Has any activist actually answered the question of if we allow anyone free access to women's spaces based on their say so how will we stop the so called 'cisgender' males from abusing it?

I asked this question of a transactivist in a forum where it would have been unacceptable to simply shout bigot. The "answer" was that given men's exalted status, no "cis" man is going to put himself through the stigma of putting on a dress or calling himself a woman just so he can get into women's bathrooms.

Apart from being astonishingly naive, that statement would tend to mean that the stigma associated with being trans is what protects men from claiming to be women so they can abuse women's space. If that's true, removing the stigma would expose women to harm. I don't think it's true, I think abusive men are capable of all sorts of behaviour.

JuliaScurr · 06/06/2014 12:00

I've never had an answer to that question - like 'nalmalt' - how are we meant to know which ones? better for us to be escorted to the lav, apparently

BillnTedsMostFeministAdventure · 06/06/2014 10:06

"Has any activist actually answered the question of if we allow anyone free access to women's spaces based on their say so how will we stop the so called 'cisgender' males from abusing it? "

This is a good point.

Beachcomber · 06/06/2014 09:49

Janice Raymond on the fetishization of women as sexualised objects;

From here.

transgendersurvivor.wordpress.com/2013/09/21/trannies-fetishize-and-crave-man-made-simulacra-of-female-biology/

Finally, and I think most important, there are more male-to-constructed-female transsexuals because men are socialized to fetishize and objectify. The same socialization that enables men to objectify women in rape, pornography, and “drag” enables them to objectify their own bodies. In the case of the male transsexual, the penis is seen as a “thing” to be gotten rid of. Female body parts, specifically the female genitalia, are “things” to be acquired. Men have always fetishized women’s genitals. Breasts, legs, buttocks are all parts of a cultural fixation that reduces women not even to a whole objectified nude body but rather to fetishized parts of the female torso. The Venus de Milo symbolizes this as well as the fact that it has never been restored to its original integrity. “Cunt, ” “ass, ” “getting one’s rocks off, ” “balling, ” are all sexist slogans of this fetishized worldview where even “chicks” and “broads” are reduced to the barest essentials. Male-to-constructed-female transsexualism is only one more relatively recent variation on this theme where the female genitalia are completely separated from the biological woman and, through surgery, come to be dominated by incorporation into the biological man. Transsexualism is thus the ultimate, and we might even say the logical, conclusion of male possession of women in a patriarchal society. Literally, men here possess women.

Definitions of fetishism are revealing in this context. Webster’s Dictionary defines fetish in several ways: First, as an object believed among a primitive people to have magical power to protect or aid its owner; broadly: a material object regarded with superstitious or extravagant trust or reverence; an object of irrational reverence or obsessive devotion; an object or bodily part whose real or fantasied presence is psychologically necessary for sexual gratification and that is an object of fixation to the extent that it may interfere with complete sexual expression. Second, as a rite or cult of fetish worshipers. Third, fetish is simply defined as fixation. From these definitions, it is clear that the process of fetishization has two sides: objectification, and what might be referred to as worship in the widest sense. Objectification is largely accomplished by a process of fragmentation. The fetish is the fragmented part taken away from the whole, or better, the fetish is seen to contain the whole. It represents an attempt to grasp the whole. For example, breasts and legs in our society arefetish objects containing the essence of femaleness. Thus the fetish contains and by containing controls.

However, the other side of fetishization is worship or reverence for the fetish object. In primitive religions, fetish objects were worshiped because people were afraid of the power they were seen to contain. Therefore primitive peoples sought to control the power of the fetish by worshiping it and in so doing they confined it to its “rightful place. ” There was a recognition of a power that people felt they lacked and a constant quest in ceremonies and cults to invest themselves with the power of the fetish object. Thus to worship was also to control. In this way, objectification and worship are two sides of the same coin. In this sense transsexualism is fetishization par excellence— a twisted recognition on the part of some men of the creative capacities of the female spirit as symbolized and incarnated in the usurped female biology. This usurpation of female biology, of course, is limited to the artifacts of female biology (silicone breast implants, exogenous estrogen therapy, artificial vaginas, etc. ) that modem medicine has surgically and hormonally created. Thus transsexual fetishization is further limited not even to the real parts of the real whole, but to the artifactual parts of the artifactual whole.

AskBasil · 06/06/2014 09:10

I'm not sure if any transactivist has ever answered that question tbh, my impression is that if you ask it, you will be called a transphobic TERF. But I don't get involved with trans politics that much as I simply can't be bothered to engage with it and also I don't want to be targeted the way women who have spoken out are. I'm just not that brave.

It disgusts me so much, that the main voice I hear from transactivism, is that which is determined to shut feminism down, while I hear nothing from them about the really powerful people and organisations (led by men) which they don't target. They don't threaten fascists, Men's Rights Activists, the church etc.- those organisations which are male led and have genuine power over their lives, unlike radical feminists and are implacably imposed to any deviation from gender norms and would most certainly not validate their views of themselves. But I accept that there may be an activist wing who are in fact doing that rather than threatening radical feminists with violence and I don't know enough about the politics to realise that they're out there. I will say that it's the one thing I really admire Peter Tatchell for, is his steadfast obsession with attacking Anglican bishops. Grin Or any patriarchal religious leader really, good on him.

NotAgainTrevor · 06/06/2014 08:43

Ah yes, like the many who think men should just be able to walk away from an unplanned pregnancy in the name of equality. Because yet again putting all the risks and consequences onto women whilst allowing men no fucking consequences whatsoever is somehow making things 'equal.'

Has any activist actually answered the question of if we allow anyone free access to women's spaces based on their say so how will we stop the so called 'cisgender' males from abusing it? Therefore putting both females and transwomen at increased risk from harm? I've never seen it, which suggests yet again it is not about safety and equality it is about controlling women.

AskBasil · 06/06/2014 08:13

Also Chris Hambrook et al are just the ones we know about.

We don't kinow what goes in female prisons because we're not generally told.

AskBasil · 06/06/2014 08:12

Well, some women call themselves feminists while going along with the idea that men are entitled to sex, so I suppose we should never be too surprised by what can pass for feminism....

NotAgainTrevor · 06/06/2014 08:06

I know this is why we are not allied together, which means the main activist transgender movement is not about freedom to express who you are as is often claimed. It is about keeping women in their place and denying us freedom. The genuine and not irrational fears women have due to men's actions are not listened to and understood, they're shouted down and called transphobic bigots. Because women don't matter one jot.

I cannot believe how many people call themselves feminists but go along with this shit.

Beachcomber · 06/06/2014 07:07

Radical Feminists and transwomen are not perfect allies due to holding opposing views on gender.

Radfems reject gender. Transgenderism fetishises gender. Radfems are woman centric and pro lesbian. Transgenderism is male centric and homophobic and anti lesbian.

Transgenderism is deeply conservative. Radical feminism is radical.

There is potential to be allies with certain individual transpeople but the transmovement as it exists just now does not wish to be allied with feminism, it wishes to co-opt feminism, to exploit feminism. And this has been pretty successful in liberal feminist circles. The trans movement has also co-opted aspects of the gay rights movement and the intersex community.

Transgenderism as it operates today is anti woman, anti lesbian and anti feminist.