TERF

YY to all the above ^^

I've read some really horrendous stuff as a result of this thread. Stuff I didn't even realise was a thing iyswim. Women having their boundaries broken down like this, and being called bigots because of it... well, Not on. Not ever.

It's really opened my eyes to what all women are up against, and not in a good way.

I was keeping up with this thread quite well until I got to Flora's post about lesbians becoming FtoM and then having sex with gay men......and then my mind refused to cope. It's sort of like a hideous, real life, double negative situation. Can I just comment on the bit upthead about whether women should find the thought of being in a changing room with a lesbian threatening (because the lesbian might be objectifying you). Well, apart from the fact that, of course it's not threatening because even in the remote likelihood of this happening (and I don't know of this ever ever happening to anyone I know), the lesbian is not physically stronger than than you and does not have a penis to rape you with (which is always the underlying threat when a man is objectifying you), apart from that.......you wouldn't know, would you? You wouldn't know that the woman getting changed next to you is a lesbian. Unless she has a sign around her neck or something (never experienced that either). But if it was a trans MtoF person - well, it would be pretty obvious when you see his/her penis that you are in the presence of someone who has the potential to harm you......and you'd feel threatened. Similarly, presumably gay men don't objectify women and are not a threat to them......but because they have penises nd no signs around their necks saying "I'm gay," you don't know that......so they are not allowed in your changing room. It's an obvious safety issue - if you don't have a penis then you can't rape me, please come into my changing room. If you do have a penis then, even though you may be gay or tans MtoF or impotent - because I cannot tell this, as you don't wear a sign around your neck, best you don't come in.

I know I am not posting very articulately on this issue, but I am finding it very shocking. Particularly distressed to read about young children having their bodies altered in such horrifying ways.

Men used to just deny that lesbianism existed at all didn't they.

And then I guess when women started to identify as lesbians and there was enough of a critical mass to not be able to deny the actual existence of lesbianism as a real thing, the only way to deal with it is to appropriate it. If the ruling caste can appropriate the sexual independence of the oppressed class, then it's no longer independent is it? It belongs to men, just like everything else.

When I was youngish, men seemed to hate lesbians and seemed to me to be disgusted by them, like they were disgusted by gay men. Then in the late 80s (although it may have been more connected to my age), men seemed to get very excited about lesbians. My guess is that this is porn related and men wanted to appropriate lesbianism as a man-pleasing activity, carried out on their terms of course. It's like the lack of understanding of women being out without their owner along the lines of "Are you [three, fully adult] ladies on your own?" but ten times worse. Sorry if this is lesbsplaining, not meant that way.

Gay men don't seem to be targetted by this queer theory in the same way as women are though. I read something yesterday I couldn't get my head around. I have heard from lots of lesbians that FTM transition rates are quite high. I didn't realise there were women transitioning and then becoming gay transmen - having sex with gay men. The blog I read was very sad, talking about these transmen (without bottom surgery) having sex with gay men without condoms, getting into BDSM and having DP threesomes with two gay men. I know people IRL who are into BDSM, I know gay men who are very promiscuous, none of that bothers me at all, though not my thing but there seems something desperately sad about this that I can't quite put my finger on.

It is all about laughing at and erasing the idea that some women are lesbians and so don't want to have sex with any man.

Men are really into fetishising lesbianism but in a way that allows them to ignore the whole point which is that it doesn't involve men.
Hugo Schwyzer being one hideous example.
Some guy just made a joke about how he'd make a great lesbian on a friend's fb wall. It's everywhere

Oh My God! I couldn't believe my eyes today! I saw a tall, bearded man wearing a t-shirt with the word "dyke" on it!! Super offensive. I wanted to ask him wtf he was doing, walking around with a lesbophobic slur on his chest, but didn't.

Not joking, this happened. Immediately thought of this thread and the male lesbian video.

Basil, I think lesbophobia is a form of misogyny. Is it worth naming separately? I think it is along as we remember that it is ultimately about misogyny.

Julia, I know it is women who are apolitical, but most lesbians even if they are actually anti feminist, don't want to have sex with someone with a penis. Bisexual women who are apolitical, don't have that same gut feeling. So they are easier to influence with this queer theory.

Yes I think the effect is the same, sorry if I seemed to be minimising that, not the intention, just that the cause is slightly different IYSWIM. Although maybe it's not, I've just realised that a thread on lesbophobia might be useful to discuss this. I haven't really thought that much about why there is such a thing as lesbophobia at all and what the causes are and how it connects to misogyny generally and anti-homosexuality. Am busy doing laundry at the mo but might start a thread later if anyone's interested in discussing this? Unless anyone else wants to start a thread of course.

calmet I don't think it's bisexuals, it's apolitical gits

I think a lot of islamophobia is tied to racism but I don't think it's helpful to tell someone they're not experiencing islamophobia. It's similar, for me.

For example, parents not wanting children to play with your children in case you abuse them, volunteering coordinators keeping you away from women in case you assault them or leer at them, employers choosing straight women over you in case you threaten people, lesbians being socially isolated due to shunning for lesbophobic reasons above etc etc - it's part of how oppression of lesbians plays out.

It feels like lesbophobia to lesbians. I get that there's issues around male predation on women in the mix but in terms of how it plays out it's straight up lesbophobic

I'm not sure if it's lesbophobic as such, so much as simply believing that the default behaviour re sex is male behaviour. So lesbians because they're attracted to women, must have the same (predatory) behaviour and attitude to women as straight men, the other group who are attracted to women. It's not about the lesbians themselves so much as the projection of male behaviour onto women. It's sort of lesbophobia by proxy as opposed to direct lesbophobia IYSWIM.

I'm not sure if I know what I mean tbh.

It is because they think lesbians behave like men, instead of like women. It is actually pretty lesbophobic.

Well, quite. I think it's telling that anyone undermining a woman's wish to see a woman doctor is portraying that predation as an inherent facet of being attracted to women. Like there's no other way to express an attraction to women than leering and thinking objectifying thoughts.

I think it is very rare for lesbians to leer at other women. But women are not taught to be sexual predators.

ooh rffu I hate that 'lesbians objectify women just like men do, so lump it and put up with your boundaries being invaded by men'

I think there are valuable conversations to have within the lesbian community, from a feminist perspective, about objectification and I do think if a woman did leer it would be a problem but firstly I really haven't experienced that much (so many more threatening situations where a straight woman's projected something odd onto my being a lesbian and been aggressive towards me) and secondly I don't feel as threatened when it does happen (I can count the instances on one hand) as when a man is threatening, but thirdly surely the fact a woman doctor understands what's painful or uncomfortable for a woman patient is what's relevant there.

No sadly not. There are plenty of lesbians with internalised misogyny. There is currently a significant number of lesbians who have decided tehy are men and are transitioning to FtoM's.

Being sexually attracted to other women, is not the same as having any understanding of how women are oppressed by men.

RFFU - Yes she is a lesbian, despite being really mixed up. She nwo thinks she was wrong since discovering real feminism. Lesbians can still have a lot of internalised misogyny.

All the lesbians I know say they are very careful in women's changing rooms not to look at other women at all in case they misinterpret. But women are not raised to be sexual predators.

And yes, men's fears are always taken much more seriously than women's. Even though they are not the ones being raped and sexually harassed by men in vast numbers.

That Stavvers person is a total misogynist isn't she?

Basically it's STFU women, your concerns are just not valid.

I can't believe that she's a well-known feminist. She just doesn't sound like she comes from any feminist tradition I recognise. When did feminism become about telling women to STFU because their well-founded concerns are simply not valid? This just sounds like every bog-standard response to every concern women ever have. Not like a feminist response at all.