TERF

I'm sorry, buffy v I don't think sociology is nonsense and I agree it real. I regretted that comment as soon as I posted it.

I don't think the feeling of being in the wrong body is necessarily untrue but there is a reality, both biologically and sociologically (I think), that is not overcome by an individual's feelings. For example, when de Beauvoir said "one is not born but becomes a woman", I don't think she meant that men can become women but that socialisation forms a girl into what we think of as a woman. I agree with this but genderism undermines it with claims that there is no shared experience of girlhood which is necessary to state if one believes that anyone can be anything.

just no there isn't. It's all just sociological nonsense. You're not allowed to question the mantra that transwomen are women cos that's transphobic.

I believe most feminists do not believe in genderism, even those who attack radfems. I think a lot of genderism supporters are motivated by pity for people suffering from dysphoria. It seems beyond understanding to me that sensible people who are feminists of any stripe could truly believe what you've set out donkey . I think a lot of people are naive about human behaviour. Not just young people. I listened to a 50+ lesbian lawyer recently say that women are at "no risk" from male bodied people (including "gender fluid" men who may take no steps to transition) in communal showers or sleeping areas because there is no man in the room. (The idea of a lawyer saying "no risk" about anything shows the bizarre mind set required to support genderism.) This willingness to make assumptions about good behaviour has led to disastrous outcomes in the past, for example people used to think priests would never do anything bad. The same happened with eg the Islington homes scandal where there had been a belief that gay men would never be paedophiles. It's very attractive to believe that all people are good or that people who have difficulties in life are good people. I don't know where this trend of genderism is going to lead but it is very worrying.

Trans theory (genderism) fundamentally conflicts with feminism, so feminists who care about women's liberation need to resist it.

This includes resisting:

The idea that gender ('the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women' - WHO definition) is innate and caused by 'male' and 'female' brains.

The idea that biological sex is a social construct and it is bigoted to talk about how it forms the basis for women's oppression.

The idea that children who do not conform to social sex roles are 'born in the wrong body' and need to be hormonally and surgically modified.

The idea that men can become women and vice versa (only possible if you believe there are metaphysical 'male' and 'female' essences), and all men, including rapists and serial killers, are woman if they say so and deserve to be legally treated as such.

The idea that women must prioritise male needs, including the desire to be socially treated as female, over female reality.

Women who resist the above ideas are called TERFs.

Kim I am so sorry that you were bullied at school. That kind of experience can and does colour the rest of your life. I am also sorry for the struggles you have been through since then, I really can't imagine how difficult your transition has been.

However, while you might not realise it, you did grow up surrounded by male privilege. However you felt inside, your external appearance would have afforded you deference from complete strangers that my external appearance wouldn't have. Your horizons would have been wider, your behaviour less censored. It's all subtle stuff maybe, but it does make your lived experience different from most adult women's.

Nowhere on this thread have I said that you are lucky kim147. Nor have I said anything about male privilege with regards to you personally.

I spoke about behavior that I have observed in some transwomen. I said I see transwomen acting with male privilege all the time, I see them acting entitled all the time

Because I do. I see transwomen, who have intact male bodies, insisting that they are female and wanting into female space and wanting female centric organisations, spaces, discussions and struggles, changed in order to include and suit them. That to me shouts 'male privilege'.

I also see transwomen acting dominant and threatening women with sexualised (and other) violence. Behavior which is exactly the same as that of men when they want the women to shut up.

And my discussing that is not a personal attack on you. You are making this personal, not I. And you are swearing at me and accusing me of all sorts of things because you disagree with me. I could read your posts as trying to guilt me into shutting up. Which is also something I have observed transwomen doing - demanding that women change their language or be quiet about women's rights because of an individual transwoman's mental health issues, trauma at the hands of men, suicide attempts, pain and distress and so on. Now, of course I feel sorry for anyone with these sorts of issues but I am not responsible for them and I see it too often to think that it is a good idea for myself and other feminists to allow such behavior to influence how we discuss women's issues.

You are not being silenced - you are here and you can post the same as anyone else. You may be disagreed with however, and you may read views which are painful for you. I don't think we can be expected to not discuss transgender politics, or lie about what we experience and believe because of your presence on MN and the horrid things that you have experienced.

I have experienced horrible things at the hands of men too. Which is one of the reasons why I do not want to share locker space with a male bodied person and why I would like to meet up with other female bodied people in order to discuss male bodied violence against female bodied persons without having male bodied persons present. And when I or others express those views and we are threatened and harassed, that only confirms my view.

kim you clearly don't get this. Do you get it that feminists don't like it when they discuss eg male violence and a man pops up and says "women are violent too"? That's what you do every time the silencing of gender critical is discussed. And you're just as wrong as those men who derail feminist discussion with "women do it too" or NAM, both in the substance of what you are saying and your derailing insist discussion. Those men also would characterise feminists criticizing them for doing this as being silenced by feminists.

Kim

I also think disagreement with is very different from silencing.

You very effectively silenced me on another thread by refusing to engage with any of the points I made in response to you. To a degree, engagement is precisely, allowing another's voice to be heard. By disagreeing with them explicitly you are not silencing them but acknowledging them.

When you misuse the term silencing in this way, I feel you are minimising the actual political silencing we would refer to in gender analysis.

I'm not sure that I'd ever describe anyone as 'lucky' per se in regards to male privilege. It's really clear that patriarchal constructions of masculinity have done you great and ongoing harm Kim and in that sense I'd regard us having a sympathetic perspectives.

At the same time, though, in the terms of discussion and discourse, the designation you received at birth as male, means that you have to an extent been socialised with male privilege; about what you can speak about, about how people should regard that speech, about your entitlements and the relevance of your experience of others' speech to the conversation, in a way that I have not. I know that in other contexts you have recognised male privileges as they apply to gender analysis so see no reason why you'd not see that this one also may have applied to your early (doubtlessly traumatic) socialisation.

I hope you can see why feminists might experience TERF accusations as part of that package of entitlement that comes from male gender assignment at birth, and such silencing tactics feel like an attempt to protect that privilege rather than relinquish in the process of rejecting male gender assignment at birth.

I have not been subject to the same punishment of 'not doing my gender correctly' as you have and for this I am thankful and recognise the privilege of feeling unthreatened by others' perception of me as basically female. But you have occupied a position of privilege relative to me in regards discourse which isn't to say you are lucky or should be thankful, and haven't been injured. None of those negative experiences mean you have not been privileged in other ways, though I do accept that you'd rather have none of the privilege and none of the punishments that have been meted out to you on account of your gender assignment at birth.

When people shout TERF though, that's what I think: I think they want to be female except when it comes to access to and authority in discourse. To an extent, I feel the same way; who would want to be constantly interrupted, derailed, silenced or described as unhinged, irrational or hysterical? Really, though, blaming feminists for the ways that discourse excludes speakers as (trans)women is, and I've thought for ages about how to describe this, a fucking outrage.

God you did it again! Can't you see how inappropriate this is, as well as being completely false?

It's the "But ..." part of your post that illuminates. Why do you consider it necessary or appropriate to criticise feminists as part of this discussion? It's like the MRA refrain "women do it too". Exactly like it.

kim, why are you on a feminist board bleating about how feminists need to understand the difficulties of trans lives? Why should we? Feminism is not a catch all movement for any group of people who feel they need a boost. It's about women, and putting women first. We care about women.. You, by your own admition, don't fit into the same bracket as us, which is why you've declared that "we" don't understand "you". Fine. Find solace among trans people who DO care about the difficulties of trans lives and leave those of us who are concerned about the oppression of women to get on with it in peace..
... unless you're trying to obstruct the work of feminists by diverting their energy away from women and onto transwomen. That would be a male thing to do.

Well no-one said you were lucky. That doesn't mean you don't have male privilege. Frankly I think you're exercising it right now in demanding we discuss feminism in a way that doesn't offend you. I don't see the difference between this and the men on the NAM thread or in fact, men all over the place expressing their offence at women discussing the misogyny and male violence behind the Elliot Walker killings.

I cross-posted with your last post kim. I'm sorry your life is hard and you have had to deal with terrible behaviour, presumably for not conforming to society's expectations of how you should be. But patriarchy and gender conformism hurts all women (both as a class and, to varying extents, individually). Feminists must be able to name and fight their oppression without having to gag and bind themselves to avoid offending you.