TERF

And more to the point, hadn't been updated for more than six and a half years before being resurrected.

And thanks to that I've now earwormed myself with this:

THIS THREAD WAS STARTED OVER SEVEN YEARS AGO

As would have been pointed out to Anti when posting, yet anti chose to resurrect this thread to contribute that post.

ZOMBIE THREAD

Not sure what you are asking exactly, but speaking as member of many minority groups, and very close to several trans people, I think it is best if we remember, there are Trans people & there are Trans people.
Several hours ago, a fello "activist" became verbally abusive when I didn't accept his view of the trans issue. He is a hetero male btw

Here you go OP

Second thread

I lurked on both and found them hugely informative and helpful in figuring out my own stance on these issues.

Thanks, Donkey.

I agree DonkeySkin.

Since we are now not supposed to mention that someone is trans, this story can be reported (sorry, Daily Mail again) without mentioning that this is a transwoman:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2366260/Body-Integrity-Identity-Disorder-Chloe-Jennings-White-58-disown-legs.html

Or the recent reports about an Arizona "woman" arrested for soliciting bestiality on Craigslist?

Next we'll have Ally Fogg along to say how men and women commit the same crimes.

BillnTed, the largest long-term follow-up study on transsexuals after sex reassignment showed that MTFs demonstrated male-pattern behaviour WRT to crime, including violent crime:

Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/

There's also just the fact that some rapists and serial killers identify as transwomen, which automatically leads to 'females' being recorded as committing the types of crimes that women simply do not commit. Serial rapist Richard 'Sherri' Masbruch, serial killer Douglas 'Donna' Perry and serial rapist Christopher 'Jessica' Hambrook, who was mentioned up thread, are some examples. In Australia we have Paul 'Paula' Denyer, who murdered three women in the 1990s and is trying to force the state to pay for his gender reassignment.

These kinds of sadistic sexual crimes are intensely and peculiarly male, as everyone knows. Women do not stalk, torture, rape and murder other women for sexual satisfaction, but now, for the first time in history, we are being asked to believe that they do, and the worst kind of misogynistic violence that men inflict on women will be recorded as female violence. Nothing illustrates that we live in a male supremacy more clearly than the fact that men not only annihilate women for being women, they can, after doing this, claim to be women, and have the whole of society recognise this demand.

Nothing to add right now but marking my place as this is a very thought-provoking thread. I only came across the term TERF tonight in Laurie Penny's tweets this evening so it's a self-education moment for me.

"trans women are just as likely to commit violent crimes as anyone else with a Y chromosome ".

Is that true? I'm not sure that it is.

It's probably mostly because they've just not thought about it/are aware of how it is eroding our rights.

If you'd asked me a year ago I would have said I was pro trans rights because in my mind there was no real difference between being gay and being trans - it's just something that you have no real control over and doesn't affect anyone else. The idea that being pro-trans meant also being pro-penis in women's changing rooms hand't occurred to me. I also wasn't aware of the large number of trans women who have no intention of having surgery that feel it is their right to have sex with lesbians.

It was the thread about the transwoman who wanted to be a paraplegic that opened my eyes. It piqued my interest and found a post about it on gendertrender (awaits someone popping up to shout bingo). I ended up reading half the site that day but didn't really believe it until I started interacting with trans individuals and saw that everything GT said about how they like to silence women with accusations of being transphobic and in depth explanations of how mentioning that sort of thing severely damages their mental health.

Just fucking do it.

D'you know, I'd never thought of that.

Lucky there's someone who knows so much about women's experience, to tell me.

And women who call themselves feminists give this house room and don't notice the problem with it?

I just keep being astonished.

RRFU I think this whole area needs to be discussed properly. The UK legislation has some exemptions for sports activities for transsexuals, even after genital surgery and hormone treatments. As we are moving into this issue of gender identity rather than transsexuals, I agree we need to talk about why certain things are separate. Statistics is a serious issue here. The numbers of women in certain fields is very small and the inclusion of transwomen can definitely move the needle in counting diversity statistics. There is a surprisingly large number of transwomen working in the software industry. Someone else counted the numbers of transwomen who signed this open letter and figured that about 30% of the signatories work in STEM jobs:

freethoughtblogs.com/zinniajones/2014/04/open-letter-100-trans-women-stand-against-calpernia-addams-and-andrea-james/

Also, there is a senior engineer at Twitter who is a transwoman and has been charged with rape (Daily Mail link):

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2602740/Transgender-female-Twitter-engineer-charged-raping-estranged-wife.html

This person is also a member of an organisation for women in engineering. When asked about advice for women who want to get into functional programming, this senior engineer at twitter advised:

It's hard for me to answer questions like that. Somebody was interviewing me for a pilot blog and they asked me the same thing about women getting into flying, and it's just like–I don't really have any advice, just fucking do it. Don't let anybody tell you no.

Just fucking do it the privilege is blinding.

Yep, transwoman doing alright for themselves and that being labelled as women's accomplishments excuses the patriarchy's inequality. Transgender women being counted as women in any statistic is really unhelpful - trans women are just as likely to commit violent crimes as anyone else with a Y chromosome but their crimes get lumped into our stats giving credence to the idea that women can be just as violent as men.

Agreed Queen

Here is another picture of the basketball player:

thehangoutsportsshow.com/tag/gabrielle-ludwig/

Also, look at this:

www.nytimes.com/2014/06/08/business/riches-come-to-women-as-ceos-but-few-get-there.html?_r=0

A woman is in the top 10 highest paid execs. Oh wait, it's a transwoman. Marissa Meyer is the highest paid woman at number 34.

It's nice to see such an open discussion on this that hasn't been railroaded.

It's pure madness that we are expected to accept male born individuals as women even when it puts us at a disadvantage. It's not just the safety issue (which is a huge issue), it's also wiping women's achievements out of the history books and competing against us unfairly in sport.

First female navy seal
Female mountain biking champion
Female college basketball player

x-post!

Yes sorry I understood that. I thought Basil was asking about what people who purposefully identified as "non-binary" meant by it, not what the article eloquently pointed out non-binary should actually mean. IYSWIM (and I'm tying myself up in knots here so don't worry if you don't!!)

Do people call themselves "non-binary", or is it just used to describe prescriptive gender roles?

I think in this context Basil, it means that gender isn't just masculine and feminine i.e. there aren't just two genders. But a whole host of (presumably) identifiable genders, rather than people just being, well people and not prescribing to any gender.

What does non-binary mean in this context?

Sorry, bit of a thick question, but I've heard this term used and I don't actually know what it means.