Is sex working ever 'acceptable'

"what imaginary stuff"

Sex trafficking.

"I do not think women selling sex anywhere should be criminalized."

Did you know women who sell sex in Sweden who work together are committing the crime of running a brothel?

That's something advocates of the nordic model keep quiet about.

Why isn't interested in who with the what imaginary stuff?

I'm confused. Are you?

So why aren't you interested in non-sexual labour trafficking and only interested in (mostly imaginary) sex-trafficking?

Now, that is a serious issue.

I do not think women selling sex anywhere should be criminalized.

I don't believe tea picking does have a terrible human rights record everywhere, and the article doesn't support a claim to the contrary.

I also don't understand the point of your link. The woman/girl in question in your link is asking for help because the tea picking was a ruse to force her into prostitution.

Did you even read it?

In the UK, buying and selling of sex on the street has been illegal since 2007.

Oh, sorry, it was just a joke.

I meant, like 'Godwin's Law' on the net.

The time when you state the argument that makes everyone feel you're going OTT. Like saying 'why aren't feminists doing x, don't they care about that, OMG how dare they?'

You know, when you say something like that, and everyone knows you can't be being serious.

I don't know what "dworkin's law" is.

And I haven't been joking.

fluffymouse, may I shed some light on the subject. Please don't think me presumptuous for doing so, I'm only trying to promote quality in stats / research.

The statistics quoted are from highly unrepresentative groups sex workers - those most visible (the street) and those most likely to have numerous and more serious issues affecting their health and well-being than prostitution. For example, some shocking statistics regarding prostitution pertain to other, more serious issues and have titles such as "Drug Problems and Street Sex Markets", where it can be clearly deduced that drug abuse is the overwhelming problem.

Furthermore, such statistics are unreliable as many sensational statistics such as the ones mentioned are funded by anti sex work NGOs, and much research in the 'anti' field has been undertaken by researchers whose work has been damningly peer reviewed (see earlier post).

sah - I think you just hit the feminist equivalent of Godwin's Law. Dworkin's law?

Anyway, I guess you're joking as I don't want to stigmatise.

"Well those involved should stop doing them then."

And why should they give up their £150 an hour job? Because you don't like it?

"I also can't think of any other 'occupation' that is so consistently associated with forced labour,"

How about tea picking?

www.theguardian.com/global-development/2014/mar/02/tea-workers-sold-into-slavery

Noone "has a right" to drink tea, so why aren't feminists campaigning to make it illegal to buy tea to "reduce demand" so people aren't trafficked for the tea planatations?

Well those involved should stop doing them then. The more dangerous it is the less people are going to want to do it. Don't make it easier for people to bad things.

'What robs women of their sexual agency is when other women try and police what they should and shouldn't do with their bodies. Wait, this robs them of their agency full stop.'

Mmm. This, to me, seems a rather straw-man response.

We've gone from the OP asking about sex work, to you suddenly deciding it's other people (oh, it's women! All women! Those horrible, evil, oppressive women!) who constrain prostitutes.

What about the agency of women who do not want to be prostitutes? What do you say about the agency of women who have been or are prostitutes, who feel strongly that anyone (man or woman) excusing sex work is telling them what to do with their bodies?

You might say, well, why do those women who don't want to be prostitutes get more of a say that women who are happy with prostitution, right?

My feeling here is that if you're doing something that leads to abuse, rape, and trauma for you, your rights rank above those of someone else who is doing the same thing, but who is happy with it.

Simple as that.

Well obviously it is special. If it wasn't 'special' we would have a specific law that only dealt with people forced to walk the waltzers in a travelling fair, and another that only dealt with people forced to sweep roads and on and on for every type of activity. But we don't. We have general laws about such things but very specific laws about people forced to engage in sexual activity. Because sex is different.

I also can't think of any other 'occupation' that is so consistently associated with forced labour, forced 'choice' of occupation and being selected as a job due to dire social circumstances in every part of the world. There are places where it is horrendous to be forced into agricultural work, but agriculture doesn't currently have a terrible, recent human rights record everywhere.

"Stigmas help drive things away."

And also makes them more dangerous for those involved.

So the stat is useless, but the reason it's quoted so often is because noone has actually done any proper, unbiased studies on the topic.

"Rhoda Grant as quoted by Laura Lee at a conference on human trafficking stated “I CAN rely on that study because there are very few others done”. "

I can't stand how prostition is justified - 'She earns a lot of money' - so what???? Lots of bad things make a lot of money. The end doesn't justify the means. And what's wrong with making an average amount of money, or a bit of money doing something worthwhile.

Other examples are 'it's never going away' - well it needs to go away, because it's bad news for all involved and for society. Wish people would stop saying this.

'It's the oldest profession' - I'm sure this isn't true, anyway it isn't a profession, I'm pretty sure anyone could do it, although most sane people wouldn't want to.

I think there should be a stigma. Stigmas help drive things away.

"Up to 75% of women involved in prostitution began when they were under 18 years of age"

Debunked.

www.iusw.org/2012/11/rhoda-grant-and-laura-lee-on-bbc-radio-scotland/

The cherry-picked sample used for that statistic was girls who were all under the age of 18 to begin with and none of them were indoor prostitutes.

The stat does not take any adults or indoor workers into account. Attempting to make people think it represents all the tens of thousands of indoor escorts is a lie misleading.

Wawuyura those stats are so shocking they don't seem believable.

Surely death is due to all factors including (I would think) drug OD and suicide?

Is this a subset of prostitutes?

1. Prostitution is sex. Sex is shorthand for sexual intercourse which is agreed upon mutual grounds between the buyer and seller. Is a prostitute the only woman or man to have never received sexual gratification during sex? I doubt this. Also just because money is changing hands it doesn't rule out the possibility of gratification...

What robs women of their sexual agency is when other women try and police what they should and shouldn't do with their bodies. Wait, this robs them of their agency full stop.

2. Prostitution is consensual. Women have the choice to consent to sex with another consenting adult for payment. To deny their actions as consensual is again denying their agency.

3. Prostitution is work. Not all workers exchange a full set of legal obligitations with their employer - this is not a requisite of what is is "to work". Prostitution / sex work is by it's very nature a self - employed role therefore there is no employer to speak of...

Lastly, the issue of consent is never irrelevant to any kind of work whether a person is employed or self - employed. If a worker does not consent to do that work then they shouldn't have to.

_

I'm not a radical feminist. I'm liberal. I believe that women and men should be able to work safely, sanely and without stigma or moralising placed upon their work.

Penetration is not violence against women, or rape, whether or not money has changed hands between these consenting adults.

Consenting sex is not a crime.

Because a type of work involves sex it isn't somehow repugnant and 'special' to other services that a worker willingly undertakes.

Sex work is more than just penetrative sex. It can include this, it may not include this; either way the 'sex' in sex work encompasses more than the stuff of medical journals (domination etc.) and can't fit so neatly into a "men-do-this-to-women-it-is-bad" framework.

"They do not want to have sex. They want money. The money is used to overcome their lack of consent."

Practically EVERYONE who works in practically every job does it for money.

Do you think cleaners want to clean public toilets for the fun of it? Or do they do it for the money? Probably the money but they still made the choice to make money that way.

"The average age of entry into prostitution is 13 years

Up to 75% of women involved in prostitution began when they were under 18 years of age"

Then how come there are so many (thousands) of escorts in their 40s or older listed on escort directories?

Do those stats exclude escorts?