Can we talk about female violence? I need to get my response straight

Actually, I'd better not make assumptions had I?

Let's do a poll, shall we?

All those who believe that people with vaginas ought to be allowed to dole out violence willy nilly say aye?

All those who believe that people with penises should never be allowed to defend themselves say aye?

Let's count the ayes.

Vettles, can you point to a post which says that victims ought not to be able to defend themselves against an attack?

WalterMittytheSequel, can you point to a post which says that any victim anywhere should simply have to "take" violence from someone else (with or without a vagina)?

I love the way people who want to downplay the gendered nature of most violence, passionately argue against points no-one has made and I'd bet no-one believes.

On these sort of threads the victim-blamers and minimisers always seem to turn up... "oh he could have swatted her away", "it's like a child hitting an adult"...

Why do some women feel the need to downplay women's strength and power to such a huge extent. Being punched in the face by The Average Woman might not hurt as much as by The Average Man, but it would still bloody hurt.

Victims should be able to defend themselves, including through a "good" (good = broadly proportionate) offense if needs be.

Walter my 8 yo with SN has grasped that hitting back isn't the right course of action in 'taking an attack'

Ok. What's the relevance?

Walter my 8 yo with SN has grasped that hitting back isn't the right course of action in 'taking an attack'

Again, a straw argument. No-one has said they should take an attack.

I have sons. I am teaching them not to be violent. Otherwise as ezinma says the "question then becomes when it's legitimate for men to deploy that violence, rather than why it ever should be."

Solange Knowles bullying Jay Z? Puh-leeze. Don't be ridiculous.

I think comparisons of size and strength are grossly missing the point.

That's an aside.

The issue is violence against another person. Perhaps she did feel 'safe' hitting with with a big security guard.

But that's largely irrelevant.

It is not ok to violently attack someone.

I haven't seen any "equal rights/equal fights" stuff, thank goodness.

What I have seen is people say it's not a laughing matter, just because she's smaller.

I have sons. I don't ever want them to feel like they should take an attack from someone because she's lighter and has a vagina.

Jay Z is bigger than her. She was never going to win if it were a genuine fight. She wasn't bullying someone smaller than her.

She was bullying someone who she may well have had reasonable confidence in believing wouldn't give as good as he got. Does it make you more or less of a bully if you attack someone who has their hands (metaphorically) tied behind their back?

Everything Ezinma says. That's the crux.

Getting away from the case in question, I think the size/strength argument can be a bit of a red herring. Gender-based violence and harassment take place in primary schools and even pre-school, at an age when boys have no physical advantage. The emphasis on size/strength also makes it harder for some victims (eg, adult women reporting assault by pre-teenage boys, or victims of domestic violence who look stronger than their same-sex partners) to be taken seriously. The onus gets placed on the 'stronger' individual to defend themselves. This is a cornerstone of patriarchy: the world (of men) is a hard place, so you as an individual have to be big and tough enough to take care of yourself — and of the little and vulnerable women who depend on you.

Also, a lot of person-on-person violence involves objects. Women can do as much damage with an object as men. But they don't — or rather, they don't attempt to.

The size/strength argument reinforces the idea that violence is 'naturally' a man's domain. The question then becomes when it's legitimate for men to deploy that violence, rather than why it ever should be.

It's like pretending there's no difference between a child hitting an adult and vice versa in terms of the damage that can be done.

Just on an aside: I have dealt with dangerous teens who have beaten their adult carers. I have dealt with fathers who have been beaten by mothers. These two types of domestic violence do exist and are common.
It's OK to punch and kick someone if they're bigger than you, you're brave is a dangerous cultural construct for both the strong and the weak.

People hitting other people shouldn't be condoned.
People should be able to defend themselves reasonably without attacking.

So she was wrong to go attacking him.
He should never hit her back but if anyone is physically attacked they should feel free to push the person away if they can (clearly, he could) but not lay into them.

Think you must be on the wrong thread as this one has 100% agreed that she was wrong to violently attack someone. Most have also praised Jay Z's restraint.. Hmm oh well.

It would be nice if he pressed charges that's unlikely though. Who cares if she is smaller I doubt any of you would be in any kind of dilemma if a 5'6 skinny man attacked a heavy set 5'10 woman.

Actually.. on the sexism issue. There is a double standard.

The rumour is that Solange attacked Jay Z because he has been cheating right?

Well how many TV shows/films/ RL scenario have played out the "hurt my sister and I will hurt you" trope? Where the brother threatens the partner? It's totally Ok for Dads/brothers/partners to express ownership for "their" women...but if a siter gets pissed off that her BIL is being a twat? She's "crazy".

If Beyonce's brother had kicked his ass, people would be like "that will teach him"

I've seen comments like that as well. And again, they were in response to nothing.. no one thought what she did wasn't shocking.

BUt the difference between Rhiannna and Chris Brown and those two were (to me):

1.) He (Chris Brown) beat the shit out of her and in private

2.) She was in an elevator with two other people, one of whom was able to pull her away from Jay Z with hardly any issue....

3.) Jay Z is bigger than her. She was never going to win if it were a genuine fight. She wasn't bullying someone smaller than her.

4.) and this is the important thing for me.. when men attack women it is usually against a partner, the abuse is insidious, the women are emotionally surrenderd to douche bags and accept it. It's a totally different and unrelated dynamic. It would be more like the double standard that you shouldn't pick on a person (same gender) who is smaller than you or who has glasses (bit retro that one) because you have an unfair advantage.

I think if it had been Beyonce attacking Jay Z instead of her sister and she had actually left a mark it would NOT go down well in public

To me Jay Z came out of this well - you can see on the tape as a pp said, there's a moment where you see his impulse to hit back, but he controls it. I also think Solange it was an interesting situation, in regard to there were four people in a confined space, one of whom is no doubt well-skilled at 'handling' violence, the other who she knows very very well. I think in that situation she was confident no-one would hit back, iyswim.

I haven't seen any 'equal right equal fight' type posts - urgh! - but have just had a big cull of anyone who'd be likely to post stuff like that.

As a feminist I think it's perfectly OK to think that all forms of violence are wrong, but to focus most of your energy on combating the endemic, societal violence we see around us, which is men on women. Doesn't mean you don't care about any other kind of violence, or that you approve of any other kind of violence.

Agree with Basil (there's a surprise!). I also think that it is worth pointing out the dynamic of culture. Men aren't brought up to be scared of women's violence and in general they aren't scared of it. Women on the other hand are. They are told not to walk home alone. Not to go out in the dark. Be careful of what they wear. They are well aware of male violence and wary of it.

As Flora says it is a false equivalence.

Interesting.

Obviously people hitting/attacking each other is never OK irrespective of age/sex.

Clearly between people there are on average differences in size/strength. Adult generally bigger & stronger than a child, that can change when the child is past teen and may become bigger and stronger than a parent. Men are on average bigger and stronger than women, some men are bigger and stronger than pretty much everyone. etc.

In a street type situation where it's a surprise and people aren't armed, then vast majority of the time the bigger person will have the advantage. In practice when the fight is between a man and a woman that will be he man.

However, in a domestic environment, all bets are off aren't they. If I picked up a rolling pin or a pan or a knife or a screwdriver and took DH by surprise I could do him a hell of a lot of damage. But yes generally he could hold me off, he wouldn't hit me, if he saw it coming he wouldn't need to. I imagine (may be wrong) that much DV of a weaker person against a stronger involves pure rage, surprise and throwing stuff.

So I guess I'm saying that in a closed environment all bets are off.

The only people who have ever attacked me have been men.

I also think that people should see sexual assault as a form of violence, I have never understood why when they do stats about who is more likely to be victim of violence while out and about they exclude sex offences

I also definitely dont think that was the first time solange has done that. Beyonce was far too unshocked/unreactive when S lashed out. She's used to seeing/dealing with that imo

Women who attack men must recognise they are less like to be hit back. Otherwise why would you do it. Men who hit pick on the weak. Women pick on stronger men. They trust that the man wont fight back.

Good points.

I wonder if this was partly the reason for beyonce's lack of action? Perhaps she was fully aware that jayZ would never hurt her sister and also that her sister wasnt likely to do much damage to him. The guard seemed to have her more or less under control.

I am suspicious of the whole thing. I do wonder that Solange, knowing the history of JayZ, was hoping he would hit back so he would be condemned. No violent act is right and the fact that he did not respond in kind sends out a good positive message to young men.

In general, people who make these false equivalence arguments, whether it's male / female violence, "feminazis stole my ice-cream" or using racial slurs, seem deeply, intensely stupid.

"Equal fights, equal rights"??

Jeez that's low.

Queensbury rules not withstanding, it'd be rare for any fight between male/female to be equal unless distance and firearms were involved.