Can I be pro-choice, but still really dislike some reasons and timing?

Just to take a tangent for a minute, I think the 'free dental work' thing is a comment simply for the benefit of the media. From what I know from a relative who is a dentist, the availability of any cosmetic dentistry work on the NHS (even for those who qualify for free NHS treatment) is pretty limited. Even within necessary treatment, only certain types are permitted. For example, I seem to remember some years ago that you could get NHS fillings, but not white fillings except in very specific front teeth. Happy to be corrected on that, but I think she/her publicists/the reporters have added that to put a particular spin on her attitudes without it necessarily being factually accurate.

It makes me angry that this case - where honestly I think this person needs psychological help - should be used as an anti late abortion example when it is clearly so untypical of the very few late abortion cases.

But hey, it's shock horror so naturally the media vultures and their fellow carrion are out for blood. Bastards.

I don't believe that, as a feminist, you should feel you have to support a woman just because of her sex - that's illogical, and sometimes I do get cross with girls and women who act like sheep and want to give them a good shake. But surely anyone can see that this person's self-esteem is at rock bottom and she has fallen victim to the odious celeb 'culture' and there are probably serious mental health issues going on.

Yes, I find the apparent reasons for her decision profoundly disturbing but if one is pro-choice then I can't see how it is possible to support forced birthing however distasteful the situation is.

16 weeks is enough time to make up your mind - if you know you are pregnant all that time, if your circumstances don't otherwise change in that time, if you have at least some of your friends and family in support.

If women are going to go for abortion, I'd always advise as early as possible - but there are cases where that simply isn't possible. The percentage of late abortions is very low anyway, and I can't believe that it's an option any woman would choose easily.

But then I find it hard to believe someone thinks going on a TV show is a good reason to end a pregnancy, either. I do think choices like that are ill-advised at best, and it makes me question the sort of pressures some people are under, and the sort of advice they're being given to reach a conclusion that that's the best course of action. But then I have no idea what's really going on, only the headlines of what's been reported, which might not be without bias or anything.

For me, I don't think it's a feminist position to deny a woman autonomy over her body.

I don't like the idea of near term terminations but I like the alternative even less.

And while I wholly agree that you can be a feminist and do some things that are unfeminist (whatever that means), I think the right to control reproductive status and autonomy over one's physical body as being so fundamental in feminist thinking that a feminist cannot support termination with limits or conditions and still call themselves a feminist.

It's fine IMO to reject late term, multiple terminations whatever for yourself but as a concept I think feminists do need to support the idea of 'as early as possible, as late as necessary' regardless of how terrible the reality may be.

How much do we need to water down feminism just to make it acceptable for all ? It's okay that not every woman is a feminist - I'd rather stick with that than change feminism to accommodate every individual woman's needs/wants/ethics.

Doctrine I was referring to the previous poster who was talking about potential term abortions - as in 30w plus - i know it is hypothetical and i think if you went through 35w of pregnancy then that child is ready to be born...

I would never approve of forcing someone to go through a full pregnancy when that would be bad for her health, her life, her situation...

I am aware that only 1% or less of abortions are late (20 to 24w and also aware that sometimes you hide your head in the sand - especially after reading the link above.)

Like the OP, the reasons of JC really sit badly with me.

I have one DD and have had 5mc... and yet I remain pro-choice as I know there were times in my life when I had pregnancy scares I would have gone through with an abortion. I come from a country where it was illegal and did find out from a friend that she knew of someone who could do it... but it was a stress related vanishing period so the situation never happened...

Yes i know thats who i am on about the other people posting stuff, although i have to think she realises she would get this reaction, i just don't thinnk its what most woman going through the agonising decision to have a later termination would do, i find it all very strange. I know everyone gets free dental care i just find it odd to say i am pregnant so now i can get all my teeth fixed for publicity then a few weeks later saying i can't get on BB so im having a termination for publicity.

Free dental work is a service that pregnant women receive though. I didn't need any done around that time, but if I'd been saving up for some and then had the opportunity that every pregnant woman in the Uk has to get it for free, why wouldn't i do that?

She isn't responsible for horrible pictures and quotes on her twitter feed: the people who posted them are.

just to add i also believe things are not all as they seem, she probably has a PR team behind her, i just dont get how you go from doing interviews and showing your scan pics to the world to going on to do stories about terminating witihin weeks, sort of makes a mokery out of what is a very hard, emotional decison woman have to make. This is JMO and thats how i feel about it.

Tiny, generally "late term" abortions, which isn't medically defined, are viewed as those at 20 weeks plus.

To say "16 weeks is enough to make up your mind" is not in tune with the reality of those who have abortions beyond this point. On the whole, they haven't been dithering backwards and forwards for 12 weeks since the test - they either found out late (perhaps a teenager with irregular periods) or something has happened to change their mind (as in the case that has inspired this thread).

Having your child adopted if that is your free choice is great; carrying on with a pregnancy that isn't your choice and then proceeding with adoption can bring about severe issues.

Re OP's original question: to me, it's like the free speech quote "Sir, I disagree with what you are saying but defend to the death your right to say it".

Yes, Penguins. It's very difficult to separate that sometimes, as it will be for most people I imagine. But the legal right to terminate an unwanted pregnancy has to remain. So I guess to answer the OP's original question -yes, you can be pro-choice but also dislike some of the reasons, as long as your dislike is something you keep to yourself.

I'm trying to liken it to the same way I feel about any other beliefs or opinions of friends/acquaintances - those that are not offensive or racist. If that makes any sense? We're not always going to agree with everything. I think one friend of mine has the stupidest reasons ever for becoming a vegetarian and I'd love to get my teeth into a debate with her, but it is her right to stop eating meat for what seems an illogical reason, so I shouldn't pick her up on it.

I'm aware that's not the best example but it's all I can think of right now

I have had a termination and no i don't agree with this for the fact she was posting pics of the scan and talking about getting her teeth fixed free through the NHS and now she is saying she is going to abort to appear on BB. All i can say is good luck to her finding a surgeon willing to do a late term termination under the circumstances and i get the impression she could be doing this to get more exposure, reading her twitter feed she does talk about being a celeb a lot. What i do worry about is some of the postings on facebook and the effect they could have on woman who have had late term terminations, theres a lot of hatered directed at her and some of the comments are disgusting including the posting of videos and pics of late term terminations. A family member had a late term termination due to medical conditions and she really struggled with it so i think its awful if she is seeing any of the disgusting postings re being a murderer and stitching your fanny up you slag, that sort of stuff

We're nice really Cunty. It is a very well kept secret. Other boards often make out we're scary and aggressive, but tis a big myth.

Wandering - Thank you for that. That's the case study I was thinking of. Most of those are heartbreaking little portraits of a life in turmoil, aren't they?

Thurlow - For me being 'pro choice' means that I don't think the law should get involved in deciding reasons, just as you say. I agree that that is a separate issue from whether, at a moral and emotional level, you are comfortable with how someone chooses to exercise that right. I think people often mix those together - feeling that you can't be pro-choice if you think it's a bad choice, even if you think that it should be a legal and safe choice.

I think logically for me being pro choice means letting a woman do what she wants, when she wants for whatever reason with her body and foetus.

I don't obviously like the idea of late terminations (surely no one does) but I can't bear the explaining, excusing and justifying that goes on around abortion reasons. That happens all the time on the mn abortion threads. I don't think any of us should sit in judgement on any reason why a woman would want autonomy over her own body.

I honestly can't work out where I stand on this one. Part of me thinks to be pro-choice means accepting all the reasons why women decide to have a termination. After all, what is a valid reason to one woman is not a valid reason to another.

I have had a termination mostly due to the fear of a second HG pregnancy - yet plenty of women have HG worse than I did, and willingly have more pregnancies. They would undoubtedly not agree with me. My termination was also to do with just not feeling ready to cope with another child yet, fear of how work and childcare and finances would suffer - yet within circumstances where thousands of other women would place the unborn child above their needs for a career, or more income into their family.

So one women's valid reasons are another women's idea of doing a terrible thing, even if they are pro-choice. I do suspect that many women are pro-choice but only in certain specific situations, and would see reasons like 'just not ready' from a 30-something woman as not valid.

Yet I also feel that in the majority of cases terminations should occur early, as it is 'easier' and less distressing for everyone involved, and assuming a woman discovers the pregnancy at 6-8w, even with a few weeks to make up her mind, a termination can still be achieved early on in the pregnancy. Barring not discovering the pregnancy until very late, or health issues (physical or mental, and for mother or baby) arising as the pregnancy continues, a large part of me feels very uncomfortable with late abortions.

The reasons why JC has suggested she would terminate sit very ill with me, personally.

But if you start negotiating on the reasons for a termination at any stage under the legal limit, where does it stop? It's a slippery slope from what JC is suggesting down to saying 'nope, sorry, your reasons just aren't good enough for me.'

www.bpas.org/js/filemanager/files/bpas_press_briefing_late_abortion.pdf

The case study is above - reasons presented by women who were requesting an abortion after 22 weeks.

I read the Josie Cunningham story and felt so sorry for her. The choices that she has made are so self-destructive and smack of low self esteem. She has learnt from Jade Goody, Jodie Marshand Chantelle etc that over sharing about your private life and negative publicity is a good thing as long as it keeps you in the news. Other talentless individuals have gained fame and fortune, they make it look easy.

Well, as I said, I am conflicted about late abortions. And I don't think the OP really wants this to be another debate about the morality of late term abortion - then it really would become a thread about a thread.

But, from a feminist viewpoint, I think the issue isn't whether one thinks it would be a 'better' solution for you. Or a better solution for most. Or whether you think it's a morally repugnant choice to terminate in those circumstances. But whether you think legally it should be the only permissible option. Which, of course, currently it legally is. The case study I referred to had a number of women who, when scanned, were found to be past the legal limit and referred to social services to talk about options for post-birth support or adoption.

It is also worth bearing in mind that adoption is just as complex and potentially damaging a decision for some women as termination. It doesn't wave a magic wand.

But if you go to terms or close to term, wouldn't it be better to give that child for adoption?

I am pro-choice but think late ones should be considered for medical reasons only (as I believe 16 weeks, for example, is more than enough time to make up your mind...)

And if you get past viability stage, then, if you don't want the child... many childless couples would love that child