Can I be pro-choice, but still really dislike some reasons and timing?

Because a man makes himself look bad. But a woman makes women look bad.

"at 18 weeks, just deal with this quietly - you are making women with serious issues look bad"

Why does how one woman behaves have an effect on how women with totally different issues are viewed?

"Rather, I think she is disgusting because she is in the papers talking about this"

Why is talking about a legal medical procedure disgusting?

"you are making women with serious issues look bad."

She may be making herself look bad. She is not making anyone else look bad - not other people who are 5 ft 3, not other people with brown hair, not other people with two children - oh, and not other women.

I am in theory behind he idea that you should be able to deliver at 25 weeks if you decide you don't want to continue pregnancy. In practice, that's problematic (if born live, pre-term baby needs support and may have problems as a result of early birth - who wants to adopt a baby with problems?).

I think the woman in question is disgusting but not because she is aborting a baby at 18 weeks, nor because she is pursuing fame. Rather, I think she is disgusting because she is in the papers talking about this. I am as I say pro-choice, but at 18 weeks, just deal with this quietly - you are making women with serious issues look bad.

Yes and my consultant was brilliant, I had him for 4 of my 5 pg.. the mw team were also brilliant.

Im not sure what they would have done if the tablets didnt work, im unable to be induced by drip due to an emcs and the risk of rupture.

They did say they would carry on with the pesseries until they worked, I guess the difference is they can carryon increasing the drip/pesseries until such a time that they work without having to worry about the effect on the fetus

I think that's true for term induction (37 weeks plus) but inducted abortion might involve direct intervention with the foetal sac or uterus as well as or instead of IV drugs. An induced abortion can also have pain relief not possible in birth.

Moomins, that's so sad - I gues for you, once things became inevitable the hospital did what it could to make things easier, medically.

I wonder if in situations where they are considering inducing anyway, they already take into account social circumstances and the mental health of the mother.

I was induced early, and I felt they were doing it so that I would have a less stressful birth experience, rather than because of a real increase in physical risk.

I was told that once they have started you on a drip, if the induction does not work they have to carry out a c section.

Never in cases like mine it would be nice if medical proffesionals did try to preserve life. Unforunatly ive found that unless the fetus is viable some are very reluctant to intervene

My cervix started to fail, when I arrived at the hospital I was 2 cm dialated and the consultant wouldnt place a stitch. The next morning my consultant came in and attempted one but by that point I was 6 cm and it failed the next day and my waters broke.

I think it might have something to do with the strength of the pesseries and oral tablets they give you but not sure.

"If not then the woman could be offered a C-section, surely?"

Well, the issue with a C Section for a woman who wants to abort but is now under this hypothetical law of "inducing early birth" is that the balance of harm (C sections being surgery) shifts somewhat.

Thanks Moomins

I think it's fine to dislike her reasons - and her if you want. But once we decide that there are good and bad abortions, we are on the way to saying that someone else decides whether we can or can't have one and I can't accept that.

In my view, women's bodily autonomy is the only principle in question. Because it's what men have. And I stop there. Which means all abortions always are acceptable.

It does mean that I have to live with the fact that more female foetuses are aborted than male ones. And some people think that makes me a poor feminist. I don't think this is about how true a feminist you are - it's about which principles you hold dear and we will all vary in that and yet can still all be feminists. Some of us feel it's all about bodily autonomy, some about whether or not we as a society value motherhood, some feel it's about whether we should place different values on different human lives. For me it's all about bodily autonomy and that trumps everything. That's my philosophy. It may not be yours, but it doesn't have to be yours, iyswim, as long as we can each do what we genuinely feel is right.

Doctorine, they can stop the heart before induction but don't always. They didnt with me but we were told it was very unlikely he would survive induction and birth, which he didn't.

Leaving aside the political and ethical issues, in all honesty, I would have thought that women presenting at 35+ weeks for a termination for anything other than catastrophic terminal disabilities would be vanishingly small.

"Can a birth be induced before the body is ready without sufficiently powerful drugs that the foetus would be affected?"

If not then the woman could be offered a C-section, surely?

Good point. I really don't know.

Forgot to add: can't see this position actually changing anything cause all the cases of really late abortions I've heard of involve fetuses that are found to have conditions incompatible with life.

Can a birth be induced before the body is ready without sufficiently powerful drugs that the foetus would be affected?

I genuinely don't know.

I believe that a woman has a right to stop being pregnant at any time, for whatever reason.

However, I think that if, at the time she chooses to stop being pregnant, the fetus is able to survive outside her body without overt medical intervention (I guess this would be around 35 weeks) then it should be allowed to to so ie it should be given birth to without its heart being stopped.

I've never found these two belief conflicting. Maybe I'm missing something.

Moomins

My understanding is that the foetal heart is stopped before induced labour abortions?

In which case, I think that efforts should be made to preserve the baby's life (commensurate with quality of life issues of course)

I'm sorry you had to go through that. It sounds awful but, I'm guessing, necessary.

Never I think in the majority of cases that happens anyway. I had one at 20 weeks due to medical reasons and was induced. All the women I have met in the 3 years since have also been induced, have gone through labour and birth.

Although it may be different if you are paying privately

I consider myself to be a feminist. My understanding of feminism and abortion is that no woman should be forced to incubate a child against her will. This is from conception until birth.

However, I do not believe this necessarily means I should support all late term (i.e. post-viability) abortions. I don't. Last time I checked (and this may have changed since) late term abortions were basically induced labour to the point at which the cervix is open wide enough for the foetus to be removed in pieces. I think that a woman should be able to reclaim her body and 'evict' a child/foetus at any point during her pregnancy but once the point of viability has passed (which I realise is ever shifting and subject to quality of life debates), this 'eviction' should be limited to induced labour (as with stillbirth babies). This protects the woman's rights to autonomy over her own body without ending a potentially independently viable life.

It's not a perfect solution, but it's the one that resonates most strongly with me.

If someone wants an abortion for social reasons at 18 weeks (when the foetus is still not remotely viable) I have no problem with that, and am not sure what the difference is (apart from the ick factor) from 13 weeks or 8 weeks. It's a non-viable foetus whose mother wants to terminate it and should be allowed to do so, end of story.

I haven't read the story but would separately agree that celebrity culture is grim and the more we can do as feminists to fight it the better.