What we teach our children

How to break the cycle is interesting, DH and I follow gender roles less than our parents did. Funnily enough it's the mothers who find this hardest, or rather are the most likely to comment on it. Both have made comments about how DH 'has' to cook for the family (we share the cooking), or how he is 'so good' with the kids (we share the childcare, I don't get the same praise for doing the basic stuff that he does).

Is it outside influence or education or money that determines how you act? It's more than parenting definitely, I'm far more feminist than my sister (who's of the 'it's all about choice' variety of feminist that thinks lapdancing is empowering). For me being a scientist is definitely a factor, all those tests that are suppose to give different results if you are male or female I always am 'male' but I think that's because I self identify more as a scientist than a woman. Although I'm not on the spectrum I can identify with the idea that if you are used to standing out from society for another reason then the ideas of feminism are easier to understand/adopt. Maybe you just need to be exposed to enough 'feminism' to open the door - my Mum might have followed quite a few gender roles (homemaker etc) but she never wore makeup, wasn't a dieter, and didn't bother much with hair removal (this was a conscious decision), my Dad's celebrity crushes were always people like Kate Adie so I was taught that brains were essential for attracting men, looks not so much.

Maybe it's a case of 'all non-feminists are alike but all feminists are feminist in their own way'.

No one 'taught' me to do many tasks, I knew I had a task to do to get to the outcome I wanted and got on with it. That's from changing tyres to working the washing machine. People who say they can't do something simply haven't bothered to work it out for themselves.

I'd never changed a tyre but had a flat on a highway in downtown Miami at night. I still managed as I damn well had to!

*our

Despite growing up in country Oz on a farm, I grew up in a non-sexist household. I remember being utterly puzzled seeing the looks on people's faces when proudly declaring in Brownies that 'dad can sew, but mum can't!'. My sisters and I were just as interested in learning car maintenance as we were cooking (both parents are excellent cooks!). This led to us being labelled as 'not real girls' by some people in the district... We intend to raise out DTDs as 'not real girls' also!

That's what I'm trying to think about! I suppose that is why I have a positive sense of how much outside context, as well as your parents, influences you. Because for me, it was definiely that!

So growing up in a sexist household, what changed your world view LRD?

Oh, I wish.

Obviously, this is something that is a serious ongoing problem, and though it's fun to joke about it, it's not really funny for my mum. Which is why I think it's not a trivial thing to worry about in terms of how children learn this stuff.

Yes, it's not always gender specific. When we got married I had just stopped being a student and he had owned and run and cleaned and organised his own house for a few years. He was better than I was at those things. I learned and we did as much as each other.

'I would absolutely love to make my dad spent two weeks doing what she does. '

G'wan, you know you want to. Why not?

Entertainingly, my (female) DP cant' see dirt, is just about capable of tidying if driven to it with a whip, thinks three days' washing up in the sink is about when you should think about doing it and has a fully-stocked floordrobe. Folks can tell when I've been staying over because her house gets within long-stick-poking distance of clean and tidy.

I think she's decided that since the genderisation of particular forms of work is inherently patriarchal and sexist she's betraying the sisterhood by doing any womens' work whatsoever*.

Me, I honestly don't care how the work is shared, as long as it is shared.

*That or she's just a messy mare taking shameless advantage of the fact that I get twitchy at the sight of mess and can't sit still until I've ENDED it.

I agree, errol.

Something I find really upsetting to see is my mum, who is increasingly struggling, gets properly exhausted trying to keep a house and garden clean and to cook. None of the jobs she does is 'hard' but when you put them all together, yes, it is tiring. It wouldn't occur to her she's doing 'hard work'. And then, of course, she feels depressing and shit because she gets to the end of the day and feels she's 'done nothing' yet she's tired.

I would absolutely love to make my dad spent two weeks doing what she does.

I think the difficulty is, you cannot appreciate this stuff until you actually have to do it, can you? You can't see a big, obvious effect.

Yes, of course. But it happens... things which save physical labour can have the effect of yet more boring menial regular tasks landing up as things the woman does because she can.

"I simply can't fit a sink or lay tiles as quickly and as well as he can. it feels fair in terms of time spent, "

Is it? How often do you have a new sink fitted or replace your tiles?

Only if said men are with partners who accept that as an attitude.

Since wheelie bins, it's a lot easier

...easier for women, and therefore easier for men to 'cant/wont' on.

Changing tyres is what the RAC is for in our family...neither of us want to do it.

Goodness knows what my DD's household will turn out like in due course... at the moment she seems to be in the can't/won't camp on cooking and household chores . Never mind merely wiring a plug though... she's got her own soldering iron and toolbox, plans on going into electronics. Arghh.... Guess she's interpreted gender roles and decided which she prefers.

Whereas I do the bins and the car. It used to be a man's job when I was a child, because the bins were heavy, metal and the contents tended to be fairly heavy as we didn't have all the disposable packaging that fills up the bin now.
Since wheelie bins, it's a lot easier.

But I think, surely, even if you are constantly doing the most stereotypically 'masculine' stuff, you're only one example so you can't really beat yourself up about how children interpret gender roles. I could go out and train as a mechanic and spend my life covered in engine oil, and it still wouldn't prevent children from reading books and hearing comments.

I agree that the examples are badly chosen. Is emptying the bins a more 'blokey' job that's closer to as frequent as cleaning? I hear people on here saying 'ooh, doing the bins is a man's job'.

'It isn't a question of teaching them anything, it is a question of them seeing you doing it , everyday as a matter if course- something so normal they don't even think to question it. '

^ This

Or if you can't do something, the reason is a logical one, rather than because you are female or male.

It isn't a question of teaching them anything, it is a question of them seeing you doing it , everyday as a matter if course- something so normal they don't even think to question it. There is no reason why women can't look after cars, manage DIY etc. in the same way that men can cook the dinner, sew on a button etc.

I don't drive, so my H takes care of all the car related stuff and he does all the DIY as he is a tradesman. We simply do the tasks each of us excel at.

That said, it is all too easy for husbands who do these types of "masculine" tasks to think they are contributing in a meaningful way. But they often ignore the day to day stuff.

Luckily my husband also cooks daily and does a lot of the food shopping. he also picks up after himself and clears stuff away. he is a very tidy person.

But the household tasks have mostly fallen to me. washing, cleaning (shared with the kids), gardening etc. I also do almost all of the kids activities, appointments. pay their school activities and deal with homework and school letters etc.

To be honest I feel like this division of labour is skewed because of his obvious skills in the masculine jobs. I simply can't fit a sink or lay tiles as quickly and as well as he can. it feels fair in terms of time spent, but unfair because my jobs are the boring child related ones and the ones which receive no praise.

When people come into our house they say "wow, love the new kitchen - Mr What is so clever!". they don't say "wow! you must have had to keep the kids entertained for hours while he did all that - well done!"

I also get very angry when people actually think their husbands are incapable of doing housework. I mean honestly... that plays right into their hands doesn't it?

" I know women who bang on about equality all the time."

Really? How tedious of them. I don't know anyone who does that and I spend a lot of time with active and political feminists.

I totally agree, I know women who bang on about equality all the time. They expect their dhs to do what was previously considered womens work, but they aren't prepared to do what was previously considered mens work.
Their dhs do MOT, insurance, check oil and water, and are generally responsible for the cars. Some do all the DIY and decorating too.

I guess the trick is to try and teach your children (of whatever gender) to do the things you think are most important. But TBH the really important tasks are 'female' jobs like cooking or washing clothes. DH and I do those every day, he's changed a tyre a couple of times in his life, I never have. Cooking is higher up my priority list than changing tyres, and I think anyone who likes eating food can learn to cook. For those who view food as fuel there's always beans on toast.

Choosie so sad that your DD experiences sexism from the teenage male students, I'm a scientist so obviously spent a lot of time in my teenage years in school science labs outnumbered by boys and I don't remember a lot of explicit sexism coming from the boys in my science classes, sad to think it might be getting worse.

I think that my boys see a good balance with me and their dad, we both do most things (although I don't cook unless necessary!) and he has been sole parent for periods when I have worked away and vice versa.

Most things you only learn because at some point you had to do it for yourself - I had never cut the grass ever until I was in my mid 30s, because I'd never needed to yet I had fixed the tumble dryer and hoover when they broke. My dad would not let me drive (at 17) until he was happy I could change a wheel on my own and I was taught to change a plug as a youngster (my husband could do neither).

The most important tools are (imo) the knowledge of where & how to source help / guidance, and the skill of not being afraid to try even if failure is a possibility - also not to be afraid to ask for help even if you feel/look like a bit of an idiot doing so.