Disney's 'Frozen'

Elsa isn't a princess, she is a queen once her parents die, bit worrying that's getting overlooked here of all places.

I do like that it builds up to the "kiss of true love" being between Anna and Kristof, but it's actually between Elsa and Anna, I think it's and extremely good message, especially for girls, to not have Romantic love > all other love for once.

Also, as someone wrote elsewhere, Disney produce plenty of female centred action films, something you don't see very often in adult films.

It's interesting strength is mentioned, I do think we have a very skewed idea of what strength is, any flaws, feelings or weaknesses and someone isn't strong. I read a very interesting piece about Disney's The Little Mermaid and it argued that rather then lovestruck and foolish, Ariel was clever and brave, it was very intriguing.

But yes, I agree with Spork that the trolls were very mean to not point out how Elsa could control her magic.

The whole thing is difficult because we're trying to take a book written in another lamguage, translate it and then try and tie the descriptions to socially constructed ethnic groups now.

It should be possible for any character (perhaps apart from the one ethnically indigenous to Europe - the Sami character) to be illustrated or animated as being of a non-European appearance due to ancestry. There's nothing in the text to prevent that. Even the Snow Queen could be white on terms of a mask etc; she doesn't have to be ancestrally European.

And even of the story did contradict it, it is part of the nature of storytelling to change the culture and ethnicity to reflect the audience.

I'm certain that the two children in Snow Queen are white, however, one of the women who helps the main character is a Sami woman I think.

I would love a beautifully animated 2D version that's faithful to the original story. No Barbie designs. That would be a good film for girls (and boys).

I think that is a bit complicated because we don't refer to any ethnic group as brown And so illustrators opt to depict him as white. You can be a white chatacter and be described as brown (every Enid Blytonchild character on holiday). I'd rather the illustrations and adaptations for these were updated to show a genuinely multicultural historical Europe, where some of the main characters are obviously ancestrally from other continents.

I'm interested to know why Disney only presents countries as monocultural apart from the US. I suppose however troubling the content - Pocahontas and the Princess and the Frog do have more than one culture in them, but they are in the US.

Kay is certainly brown: "Gerda had to seek for little Kay. She pushed one of the red leaves aside, and saw a little brown neck. Oh, that must be Kay! She called his name out quite loud, and held the lamp over him." My kids always get excited at that part. The little robber girl is described as "taller than Gerda, but she was stronger and much broader in the shoulders. Her skin was brown and her eyes coal-black-almost sad in expression. " Gerda is less certain, her face is compared to a rose (which may be more about innocence than anything - he was big on that in girls), and with the references she could be read one way or the other (like Kaye or lighter), but there is nothing that says she's White and completely against the story to make the entire cast White or so male.

Disney does seem to focus mostly on monocultural stories, especially when characters are human. The issue socially is that they've become a trusted storyteller, even when the stories and history they pump out are skewed at best and damaging for most and alongside that issue is that Disney is buying up or sueing out most other production companies for children so the media produced for children is getting more and more of a narrow scope. We're getting only a narrow perspective during a time when things should be most broad and they're actively making harder to get it.

I've never read an original version of the Snow Queen where the main chatacters were brown. The only mentions of Kay's skin is that it goes blue with cold. The Robber Girl is described as of dark complexion and she has been written out by Disney.

There is a problem with Disney globally that they only produce monocultural films. All the msin characters in European films white, all main characters brown in Indian ones. The only genuinely multicultural animation they seem to be able to produce is Lilo and Stitch.

Oh, but I thought the ice seller chap was nice, a decent type, who had a good heart, so he is a nice role model, at least.

At the end of the day, they're still princesses!

And Anna is only changed by a handsome ice seller, i.e. changes herself for a man. Hmmph.

It's fine as a fairy story, but it doesn't get away from that basic stereotype that princesses are beautiful, and girls should model themselves on them. Oh, yes, you can be creative, so long as you're making pwetty ice palaces or painting murals or you can be courageous by leaving your tower at the behest of a man, or searching for your sister to correct your huge error (again at the behest of a man, the weaseltown chappy), you can't just do things, and be ordinary because that's not what girls should be, is it?

I didn't think Frozen was anything like The Snow Queen tbh.

The trolls were cute though

I agree imip - Disney has become the main version of stories, even of history. I have had people go on about how they hate the real historical Pocahontas story because they love the Disney version and John Smith so much (the fact that he was a drunk and she vocally spoke against him and his story in public, and that Disney repeatedly ignored and refused help from the Powhatan nation seems to be neither here or there for them). People use media as a reference, the fact the reference is distorted distorts how people view the story, the history, the people and places. It's all part of the system. See how Euro-like areas are all-white in pretty much media, particularly kids' movies, even when we know that it has never been that way - it perpetuates a mythos to perpetuate a system of division. It's why media from as outside the main systems is so important.

spork that's actually most of it for me. Disney have forever in children's mind 'changed' stories. I'm not aware of the story behind Frozen, my parents didnt encourage reading as a child, so I feel a bit behind in the type of stories I should be encouraging my dcs to read. I was trying to explain that Tinkerbell came from Peter Pan, and they refused to accept it!

Also, I recall Walt Disney himself branding people as communists during the McCarthy period in the US and he was an anti-Semite. Kind of sours the Franchise for me, but obviously has no impact on anything Frozen-related.

The history of The Snow Queen was pretty much ignored completely to make Frozen, though it is not the worst destruction of a story by far (that goes to their 'historical' stories turned into gross fairy tales). In fact most of the Disney fairy tales are very reduced versions of their originals.

*love not live

I don't see the problem with Disney princesses being beautiful and needing a prince to save them. They're based on much older tales and representing that. I think it's a problem when people can't appreciate the history of stories and where the characters come from. I wrote a huge post about Disney and women a while ago, don't know where it is but my stance would be the same. I worried more about Hannah Montana and the constant weight/sex orientated chat... And look at that 'role model' now. In fact I really dislike American TV series for children, I don't see Disney with happy endings, kindness and live as a problem. Boys are not going to grow up expecting women to look like aurora from sleeping beauty as a whole, neither are girls going to grow up believing they should be a mermaid, from the little mermaid or look exactly the same as her. Children are influenced by what they see but not to that extent, really.

Frozen was based on the Hans Christian Andersen story 'The Ice Queen' which not only passes your bechdel test- it shits them out copiously!

In the Ice Queen they smash the ugly/evil witch trope. It's a chap called Hans that needs saving by the courageous heroine (Gerta I think her name was.)

It's a great story, I loved it as a child.

Frozen is ok though. If the princess trope is moving onto being a bit more empowered and less flimsy then I am fine with that.

I don't get the appeal, I've tried to sit through it twice and just found it really jumpy and odd. The entire story hinges on the trolls finding it great to scare a small child whose powers become dangerous with fear when they know - and refuse to tell her or the parents - that they can be handled better by love. Why the trolls wanted to be so cruel no one knows and they continue to be horrid later by trying to play matchmaker without Anna's feelings being considered.

In terms of feminism:

The women are identical - Elsa and the mum are palette swaps, the faces are all the same (and have very little difference from Rapunzel). The artists themselves discussed how hard it was to make women emotional and still pretty - even though there are decades of wonderfully emotional women within animated media.

Genuine love? She knows guy number 2 only a few more hours than she knew guy number 1. While some of the older ones may be called simpering, many of them knew their princes for more than a day and are far more active than what seems to be to be blundering along by chance more than anything.

And the most frustrating for me, Snow Queen is one of the very very few Anderson fairy tales where the girl isn't punished for being a girl, is mainly helped by other women, and ends well for her. In Frozen's very loose adaptation, all the other girls and women are cut out and the rest of the cast is turned male and all of them are whitewashed (Anderson in one of his very rare mentions, does mention that Gerta (Anna), Kaye, and the Robber girl have brown skin as likely does the Laplander/Saami woman who was entirely cut other than really bad adaptation of cultural clothes). It's very confusing why so many great women characters were cut out and why they would adapt it as they did. Early story boards showed a lot of potential but for me it fell really flat.

The only positive representation wise for me is the open representation of anxiety and mental health issues, spoken of by the director. It's not appealing to me (and I prefer the sisters in Lilo and Stitch), but I know others find that connection quite powerful.

I think Disney is very clever at making their princess stories just feminist appearing enough for most people. When Beauty and the Beast came out then there was lots about how here was a new feminist Disney princess. But none of them are really, there's a bit of variation and 'fiestiness' allowed but they still have to fall in love with the prince at the end and they still have to be tiny waisted and doe eyed. For feminist friendly characters in Disney the other cartoons are better. Lilo and Stitch is my favourite but Wreck It Ralph has two fab lead female characters.

Love the songs in Frozen though and have recommended Grandma gives it to the kids for Easter (she's looking after them next week and they like to have a movie day where they eat junk food in front of the TV).

Y'all know Studio Ghibli is the place to go for decent female characters?

The huge eyes are slightly disturbing. I was asking myself just why did they make this design choice - the female characters have round heads with very large eyes, why? Because it's cuter, and it's cute because it's childlike. The girls must be much smaller and more childlike than the guys.

I worry about the thinness of Anna and Elsa not just from my dds perspective though, but also for young boys. They 'expect' it to be a realistic image of young girls/women. Yes, the male roles also hugely stereotypical and I feel the same about that.

I can't see past their thinness to think of the storyline as empowering, however. I find the whole 'princess' thing far too much to take. I did, however, have Frozen on preorder (promised it to dd1 who was screaming during a blood test). It's a tough job to tell girls, no, everyone isn't a princess etc etc....

suprised to see this thread as i though the cartoon design of the characters was really awful, like bratz dolls.

disney of the \link{http://kikizo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/snowwhite-blu-review-still2.jpg\past} and \link{http://nicktiffany.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Frozen-Posters-disney-princess-33492614-1080-1600.jpg\present} what's with the freaky massive eyes

urgh to disney all round

I agree with the comments here.
I think the film has a very good message for young girls: Don't trust and get too involved with Prince Charming too soon.
But then they made sure that Anna got together with another guy she met very recently before the film ended...
I think the characters were cute but the extreme daintiness of Anna and Elsa bothered me. Kristoff was much bigger but still cute - would it be too scary for sexists if a story about 2 sisters allowed their sizes to be a bit more normal? Would they take up too much space both in story and looks? Would it be too scary for sexists to have a story about the relationship between 2 sisters and none of them end up with a man during the film?

See, the waist is too tiny, unhealthy... Really unhealthy.

I'm trying to see this through the eyes of a child. Actually one of my children, who are not petite sized...

It seems just a reinforcement of some stereotypical beauty. I know of a 7 yo with an eating disorder, this sort of thing just perpetuates the emphasis on slim. I'm not saying they shouldn't be slim, but that seems unhealthy. And a head that big, her nimble body probably couldn't hold it....

"The two female characters still have the Disney blow up sex doll aesthetic - all huge eyes, tiny waists and boobs. "

Tahts what puts me off sofia the first I have to say. Doc McS is sensibly dressed and looks like a normal toddler (if a bit synthetic looking :o)

I liked that Elsa didnt fall in love with a man, but that sje discovered that her love for her sister was enough to control her powers.

A great movie all round.