Disney's 'Frozen'

I loved it, I loved that the act of love was one of sacrificial love rather than a romantic one. I thought it was very funny and the songs are brilliant. I loved Olaf too! His song is hilarious.

Yes, the faces and figures are all of the 'air brushed variety', would rather not have that.

I have emailed Disney to tell them. You can too.

thewaltdisneycompany.com/contact-us

Absolutely right on the Bechdel test Really, it's power is only in looking at a large number of films, e.g. the fact that Finding Nemo fails it doesn't bother me, that most Pixar films fail it really does bother me.

LADYRAINICORN I've read that as well, however after seeing other Japanese children's films I disagree. I can see the point they are making but I do believe the creators are trying to make something empowering. The films all come off very unique to me in the way they spend so much time on the character's personalities and strength. They also all seem to learn an important lesson through out the films

I think for a child old enough to properly understand Mulan it's a brilliant film. The protagonist does fall in love at the end, but to a man of her own choosing going against tradition after saving an entire country. And proving that women are as strong, intelligent and brave as men (or as in her case more so)

I tried watching it with dd who is 3 and realised it wasn't appropriate as she doesn't understand the context and men singing "that you're just a woman" or whatever some of the lyrics were would be taken at face value and not as wrong iyswim? If she were 8,9 10 I'd definitely have her watch it. I doubt it passes the bechdel test though as the majority of the film is her surrounded by men except for the beginning where she is with female family being prepped to find a husband.

The Bechdel test is also only a guide some awesome feminist films might not pass. And lesbian porn would pass. So, you know not perfect

Bechdel Test. The reason cartoons inspire such debate is because they are what our children watch when young and where they learn important ideas about the culture they live in. There is some evidence that the more TV and film culture a child is exposed to the more gender-normative their behaviour is as an adult. So if you let you kid watch tons of TV they will learn that girls look after the home and children while boys go out and have adventures.

I've not seen Mulan but from reading feminist reviews like most recent Disney princess movies it's a mixed bag. It showed a woman of colour having an adventure (good) but isolates her from other women and she eventually got married as required by her family (not so good). Compare to Kiki's Delivery service: teenage witch leaves home and moves to a new city where she makes friends and finds out what her strengths are and overcomes adversity when required. It's a classic coming of age film that happens to be about a girl rather than a boy. Usually female 'coming of age' films are about sexual awakening. I have a real problem with the idea that films marketed at small girls always have to have a romance in them.

I have no idea what the Bechdel test is or that cartoons provoked such deep debate.what do you all think of Mulan? Dds loved that one when they were younger.

It was okay, but not as good as Tangled, which had a better plot and more interesting characters. none of the relationships in Frozen were well developed, and the plot was hopelessly muddled. Much of it made no sense at all. And it bears no resemblance whatsoever to The Snow Queen, on which it is allegedly based.

There haven't been any weak simpering princesses in Disney films for decades. and no disney film that I can think of, even the old ones, features a princess who 'just sits around being pretty.'

I think it is a step in the right direction, but only a step.

I read an interesting thread on here that studio ghibli is only 'better' in a feminist sense when you watch them from a western viewpoint. That from a japanese viewpoint the women are fufiling more traditional roles of looking after everyone. It was explained better by soneone else but it did resonate with my own experience of japanese culture.

TeacupDrama Some good recommendations, another vote for Kiki's Delivery Service (also Ponyo and My Neighbour Totoro from Studio Ghibli are great for LOs), Lilo and Stitch is also great for a 4 year old, my 4&6 year olds love it (so do I). They also like The Wild Thornberries (film of the TV cartoon), The Wizard of Oz, Mary Poppins, Charlotte's Web (the live action version which is so charming and true to the book), 101 Dalmations, Hookwinked, Despicable Me, The Rescuers. All of those pass the Bechdel Test to a greater or lesser extent and all are U rated so fine for a 4 year old. There are some scary bits in some of them for a LO (101 Dalmation and The Rescuers in particular).

We're in a sorry state when one of the best films for a variety of female characters is 80 years old (The Wizard of Oz). We seem to be getting worse at this instead of better...

Lilo and Stitch and Brave are better from a feminist perspective. I also like Tangled for the interesting relationship between Rapunzel and her 'mother' too though I know it has issues too.

It would be nice to get to the point that a storyline about two women isn't noteworthy though! Maybe a few female buddy movies!

I like Frozen, I can see what people mean about the visual design of the Queen and Princess not really breaking the mould but I love that the main storyline is about the relationship between the two sisters and the sending up of the 'marrying (or leaving control of your kingdom to) someone you just met'. It is a bit self-conscious about the whole true love thing by sign posting it, but it was a bit funny.

I liked that the character design of the villain wasn't stereotypical. I was suspicious of him when she left him in charge after being warned that she didn't know him, but was lulled into a false sense of security when he was kind and helpful to the people while she was away. A good reminder that abusive gits can present a warm front to others.

Its maybe not perfect, but I think its a step in the right direction. :)

Kiki's Delivery Service, the girl is a witch who starts her own delivery service. She wears a black dress and makes friends with an artist :)

any recommendations for 4 year old DD frozen and brave are too scary for her at the moment she likes cinderella tangled and madagasscar ( if i',m watching with her) but was wondering about other DVD's that are better she is a bit girly likes dresses not trousers but not into dolls more lego and art

This is his theme song

Kristoff is a strong independent man.

Wimpering simpering males?

Kristoff wimpers "But I just paid it off..." when his sled is destroyed.

But he's not, most of the time.

The love story didn't need adding - did you WATCH the film or just 'critique' it?

Elsa criticises Ana for 'falling in love' so quick and refused blessing (fairly bloody central to everything else taking place.

Kristoph makes several comments ridiculing Ana when he first meets her regarding explicitly marrying someone she's just met.

Neither man is identified as the true love person. Her sister is.

That's pretty clear surely?

Were there any wimpering simpering males in Frozen? I don't even think that's a good description of the reindeer.

Turning males into wimpering simpering etc! Where is the attraction in that? Most of the females I see on modern films are stroppy and humourless. Just another take n it.

Thanks, MataHairy. That's really interesting!
It explains the unease many of us here have expressed with the trolls and their non-solution.
And the deep unease that I sensed with female power / sexuality - she was written first in a way that all that was unequivocally evil - and you can tell. It is a better film as it is - but you can sense the simplistic fear and misogyny in its conception - it is like a fascinating microcosm of feminist-driven partial evolution in the development path of one movie

Thought this was interesting - how the whole plot was almost completely different

Disney have shown themselves capable of making films were the female characters are not stick-thin and don't have eyes that fill the entire face, look at the sisters from Lilo and Stitch:
www.thehollywoodnews.com/wp-content/uploads/Stitch-lilo-and-stitch-4136196-1024-607.jpg
More like this please.

I liked Frozen, I liked the way that the act of love was between two sisters and that neither of them ended up married, and that Elsa was queen and didn't feel the need to get married.

I understand what people are saying about the looks, but I think that it's really taken a big step forward in changing the story for the better and that the asthetic change will come in time.

I'm loving TheSpork's posts on this thread.

also good point from almondcake that we can do what we want with ethnicity - mostly - and yet - Disney won't.

I remember that story from being a child! And yet completely failed to connect it with Frozen until reminded about it here.

I am disturbed by the way Elsa's "let it go" moment is equated with sexuality. she is expressing herself in a way she has never allowed herself to before; and this is destructive, and powerful, and clearly a huge (evil) relief for her - and very sexy. I think this is not good. I am trying to parse this in an ok way, and failing. The power and the thrill of this song is a guilty pleasure when you that her luxurating in her power, in her real self, is freezing the world to death. it seems to reinforce the gloved, "be the good girl you always have to be" message as much as anything.

I totally blame the trolls, of course. It's something about sexual power being tamed and made good by being unified with love, and yet this message didn't get to Elsa - she just got "don't feel", like that was ever gong to work.

The trolls trying to push Anna and the ice guy (sorry can't remember his name) into a marriage is of a piece with this - the tradition of early marriage in societies who are scared of sex and tame women's sexuality by having them married off as soon as possible - all repressive conservative stuff.