How do I respond to this?

Not got much knowledge here, but why surgeons?

What about non surgical hospital consultants - anaesthetists, physicians (is that what they are called?) and things like that?

Surgery has always been considered a particularly male domain so is that why he has picked it out as opposed to other roles???

I would respond by saying something like:

"I think the fact that you describe your views as "traditional" indicates that they are based in socialisation and culture rather than science, which is not surprising as much of the science is contradictory or questionable in its methodology. However even if what you say is true about the mother / child bond, how is this relevant to whether women should be surgeons? Since you agree that women make just as good surgeons as men, if the profession is structured in a manner that excludes 50% of the most brilliant surgeons, then perhaps it is time to change the structure of the profession."

By the way, do rats have good career prospects in general?

Rats are even further down the line than the usual evo psych monkey sex bullshit.

Good post!

My reply would be:

you raise really good points. Society expects women to stay at home with children (and as you say there is evidence that this is best for the children) and yet the system doesn't accommodate that. Rather, the expectation is that intelligent highly trained women will give up their careers. If, as you say, women make good surgeons, isn't it sensible to ensure to ensure that the way surgeons are trained and work is compatible with the necessity for them to take time out to have children?

What Beachcomber said.

The person who demands that you provide them with suitable 'evidence' is saying that the personal lived experiences of women don't count.

Yup.

What Beach says about 'evidence'. Asking you to provide suitable 'evidence' is setting you up to fail. 'Evidence' here means 'evidence by the standards of an academic profession that was set up and is largely run by men in accordance with their priorities and worldview.' Of course it's not going to provide you with something he'll be satisfied with.

The person who demands that you provide them with suitable 'evidence' is saying that the personal lived experiences of women don't count.

I'm actually shocked that women medical students have to sit around and listen to crap like this as part of their 'training'.

And the reason that women have to make difficult work/family balance decisions, is not down to some cuddly, touchy, feely, place it on a pedestal, but it is actually a gilded cage, wimmenz/baybeez bond.

It is because men as a group 'traditionally' neglect their children.

His view isn't 'traditional' - it is sexist.

It is born from uncritically absorbing the hegemony of a system of social organisation/status quo which benefits men as a class to the detriment of women as a class. This is very basic politics and it is surprising that someone of his education level (presumably if he is going to be a surgeon) is unable to apply clear critical thinking to the political model in which he lives.

No doubt he prefers not to apply analytic thinking to the status quo and the 'traditional' i.e. sexist view that women should sacrifice their careers, financial independence and intellectual capabilities in order to have children because it suits him and means he can have children without having to sacrifice any of those things.

It suits him because he can delegate early parenting of his own offspring to a female partner so that he can award himself the 'traditional' i.e. sexist win-win of having both a career and a family, but remain unhindered by actual day to day responsibility of the welfare of his children. It also suits him because this view takes away a whole group of people that he would otherwise find himself in competition with professionally. Quite a cushy number.

If women are barefoot and pregnant they leave men free to pursue careers unhindered by taking on proper responsibility for their children. This also creates an 'old boys club' and network which allows men to positively discriminate for themselves.

Men like this are always asking for something 'evidence based' to prove their sexist and outdated views are wrong. They do this because they know that it is unlikely comprehensive evidence exists (and even if it does they will dismiss it due to some perceived bias, etc). It is a slippery trick as his own argument is purely opinion and prejudice - it itself is not evidence based, yet he demands that you waste your time searching for 'evidence' against his personal opinion (an opinion that he holds in such high manly regard that he considers it facts that he should mansplain to the laydeez).

He sounds like a pompous entitled dick. I wouldn't waste too much time on his pontificating if I were you.

"No one is criciticizing men who become surgeons, they haven't even spent the time gathering information on whether such a work life is better or worse for children. "

This.

I think you are wrong to get caught up in the trap of arguing about whether or not working mothers are better for children or not better for children.

The point is that his opinion on that, whether evidence based or not, is irrelevent to the work place. It is a personal decision for an individual whether their working practices suit their family life. No one is criciticizing men who become surgeons, they haven't even spent the time gathering information on whether such a work life is better or worse for children.

This is why his view doesn't just come across as sexist but is sexist and hugely harmful to the practice of surgery since it is part of what stops the best people becoming surgeons and gives an easier ride to some less well qualified ndividuals.

Good post and very unapologetic phrasing - yay!

"??I just want to say... (for the record!) I think a woman makes just as good a surgeon as a man (if not better)...I just think women have more difficult decisions to make regarding a career in surgery, and external pressures; if choosing to have a family."

I would tackle his assumptions that makes this assertion.

So if/when you [the speaker] becomes a parent, you will delegate (abdicate) parenting decisions to the woman who you have jointly had a child/children with?

Have you consciously selected a life partner with a view to her being a child-rearer for you?

Do you believe that by virtue of womanhood, her life is subordinate to your job irrespective of her earnings, achievements, qualifications, professional demands and aptitude?

You presume the partner in a surgeon's life to have more parental responsibility to child care? Is it not possible that the partner (man or woman) of the female surgeon could fulfill this role?

Is it not possible that a surgeon could make use of childcare facilities that other professions make use of.

I am not a doctor but given much surgery seems to be 8 - 5, I would have thought it was 'just a normal job' in that any working parent would have core hours but have to make provisions for when overtime is called upon. Being a surgeon you have possibly more financial freedom to have a nanny/au pair to call up for support.

I think that's great; non-confrontational and evidence-based.

Good luck with your career and your family!

I suppose that one perspective is to say that there is conflicting evidence on the mother child bond, and that part of that bond is going to be on the mental health of the mother and child if the mother is a primary carer when she would rather not be.

I would then say that setting up a situation where women who work part time or women who take years out to have children and then return to work should not be surgeons is itself sexist. It is important that people can make child care arrangements that suit them and their families (including working part time and being a SAHM) and that these women can still take on important positions in society.

Rather than looking at it as a situation where women must stay at home with children or choose to be surgeons, we should be looking at women being able to do both over the course of a lifetime if they want to and are appropriately skilled as doctors.

While it is important that the medical profession is highly skilled, experienced and competent, part of patient care is not just about practical expertise, but about the psychological comfort of the patient. There is no doubt much evidence showing that patients make better recoveries if they feel they can trust the medical profession, are respected and will be treated fairly and humanely.

If a patient goes into hospital and senior staff are a sea of male faces, or indeed white faces and so on, they are more likely to feel that sexism and a lack of respect for women is at play, and feel less safe, hindering their treatment and recovery. It should then be part of patient care to recruit and train surgeons who reflect the demographics of wider society.

Regardless of what a person believes about a mother child bond, that element of women’s existence in the world has to be balanced against other issues that ensure the well being of women and people in general.

Maybe medics only trust research done by other medics, but I wouldn't have thought an obstetrician was the best person to discuss the effects of working mothers on the bonding process. Surely his bit starts and ends with birth?! However, I suspect our man doesn't put much store by what social scientists say!
I agree that you having a child is only an issue for some other people. Let them get worked up about it, not your problem, not your daughter's either. hopefully she won't have to listen to the same crap when she's older!
As for him, you can dismiss his opinion quite easily and without much energy! "Isn't this a rather outdated position?" Then link to a study like the one above.
I'm sorry I haven't any other sources to share.

try this
Goodness no! Mine was just a masters dissertation, and wasn't looking specifically at working mothers; it involved identifying girls with particular favourable characteristics and then examining their experiences of childhood and talking to their mothers to try and work out where they got those characteristics from. I'm not an academic.