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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

privilege and prostitution

282 replies

ezinma · 26/03/2014 15:15

Appearing in my social media today is one of those sharp and sassy thoughts for the day that I’m invited to approve by sharing. Where better to share it than here:

So, you are against prostitution. But you're an attractive person with a boyfriend. Who I assume you have sex with. That gives you privilege. Some people aren't so lucky. The only way they can get laid is by paying for it. Why do you think you have the right to experience one of life's fundamental experiences and others don't?

It’s from tumblr so we ought to make some allowances. Let’s, if we may, overlook the fact that I am a middle-aged frump with a civil partner; the debatable contention that sex, in and of itself, is one of life’s fundamental experiences; the erasure of women who aren’t “lucky” enough to have a boyfriend and whose right to A Fundamental Experience presumably requires them to seduce a partner using skills that cannot be withdrawn from a bank machine; and the regrettable (though now unavoidable) misuse of ‘privilege’ to refer to any old scenario where one group of people has a little bit more access to something than another group does. (Have I missed anything?)

What remains is the daring suggestion that a woman might be against prostitution because she is attractive. Since it's already well established that we fat old frumps are against prostitution — no glamorous john would waste his beer money on buying our flabby arses, and we are bitter about it! — then I’m left with only one conclusion: a woman’s attractiveness has no influence on her opinions about prostitution.

A lightbulb moment for me. Thanks, tumblr. Hmm

OP posts:
SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 26/03/2014 23:02

Bifaufen - yes. "Ugly" and "can't get a man" has always been something thrown at us.

But also - the insults to women change with the times. In 'Parades End' (a book published in the 1920's) the establishment men said of the suffragette women 'you know they're all whores, don't you?' Something damnable by society then.

Nowadays, society is more liberal - and what are feminists (or anyone objecting to females being treated as the sex class) called now? Yes, that's right, Prudes. Feminists hate sex now.

From whores to prudes in less than a century. But ugly, always ugly. Impressive.

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 22:57

Agency is a lie and a very harmful lie. When faced with the reality that prostitution is harmful to women individually and women as a class, that many women have no freedom in which to exercise agency, somehow agency becomes the most important thing and is given priority over addressing the harm. It's the ultimate in victim-blaming, telling women these things that are happening to them are their fault because they chose it.

As a general principle, agency has no value without freedom and viable alternative options.

Bifauxnen · 26/03/2014 22:39

it's "if you don't agree then you are admitting you're ugly". Like "feminists are ugly hairy lesbians". If the only thing you value about women is their looks then call them ugly and denounce them as having no value. If enough people agree then you don't really need to have a coherent argument. It's an old tactic. An old thread on here touched on how little the insults have changed since the time of the suffragettes. anti-suffrage postcard
What depressing is that to a certain extent, they still work.

scallopsrgreat · 26/03/2014 22:36

Good post ezinma.

"Sex workers might be ‘happy’ to “decide these things for themselves”, but we can’t pretend they are decided with the same degree of agency, or that the constraints are comparable, as when the punter is choosing the ‘profile’ of the person he wants to pay for sex." Yes the agency each side holds is often depicted as a level playing field when it can't possibly be the case.

scallopsrgreat · 26/03/2014 22:31

Yes Baleno, I was taking into account breaks. 6hrs is still only 3/4 of my working day after removing all breaks. Really this is basic maths. I feel like I must be talking in the language of Calculus or something.

And all this is assuming 1/2hr slots. Whereas 15min slots seem to be popular.

ezinma · 26/03/2014 22:28

I'm miles behind here, catching up with some fine wit and some, um, not so fine.

another patriarchal stance of anti-prostitution activists is that women can't decide for themselves. "My body, my choice"? Forget about it!

Here’s the thing about that. Let’s imagine, for a second, I have decided that my vocation is to be a sex worker. I’m not in a wheelchair any more, but I do sometimes walk with a stick. Because of the meds I’m taking, and the changes to my health and lifestyle that stem from being ill, my body is a bit of a mess. I’m not getting any younger. Realistically, the only people who would pay to have sex with me are those who would want to fetishise some part of my non-normativity (and expect me to play along with it), which is not the kind of sex I want. ‘My body, my choice’? No. It’s the punters who get to choose which types of bodies they want to pay for.

Those punters are almost all men, so the ‘market’ for bodies (and the ‘services’ they offer) is determined by male fantasy. This is why sex work is not just work. It doesn’t matter how good or skilled or charming I am; if I’m offering exactly the same ‘services’ as a beautiful 18-year-old girl, it would take me months to earn what she could earn in a few days. A black woman or a transwoman my age might earn even less than me. Our bodies, men’s choices. If a supermarket dared to pay a teenager twice as much as it paid me for doing the same job, I would sue. And win.

The sex worker’s agency — the range of ‘choices’ s/he has — is restricted in other ways too. How many punters can he turn down without falling behind on his student loan repayments? Maybe if she agrees to the types of sex that have a higher market value — generally those that are more painful, dangerous and degrading to her — she can see fewer clients, giving her more time to write her thesis? Sex workers might be ‘happy’ to “decide these things for themselves”, but we can’t pretend they are decided with the same degree of agency, or that the constraints are comparable, as when the punter is choosing the ‘profile’ of the person he wants to pay for sex. And there are a great number of sex workers — a few, like the fictional me, who have chosen the profession; many more who have not — who do not get a chance to make any choices at all.

This brings me back to the other topic in the thread title: privilege. A sex worker’s agency is absolutely contingent on where his or her body ranks in the hierarchy of men’s fantasies, and the degree to which s/he is willing or able to perform the kind of ‘services’ that men want to buy. An ambivalent kind of ‘privilege’ is conferred on such a person if she is young, female, able-bodied, normatively attractive, kinky, doing a PhD, etc. But only because — and for as long as — she conforms to male desire, to the basic power of the punter’s wallet.

What struck me about the tumblr quote is this. It argued (wrongly, in my opinion) that a degree of ‘attractiveness’ was required for a woman to be able to engage in a monogamous, consensual relationship. What it overlooked was that a similar (or greater) degree of ‘attractiveness’ would be required for a woman to make a decent living as a prostitute. And thus to be anti-prostitution is a position that demands no more — and probably less — privilege than would be necessary for a woman who wanted to take money for sex from a desperate punter grant one of life’s fundamental experiences to a luckless individual.

OP posts:
Bifauxnen · 26/03/2014 22:22

"I want to buy women, this is the most important thing, everything else must be dismissed or derided as illogical. Caring about the rapes, the violence, both to individual women and women as a class and the warping of the humanity of men who are allowed to believe that women are things to be bought, all of this is just illogical and emotional thinking. What my penis what's is objectively the right thing and any opinion that recognises the humanity of women is purely subjective."

Have I got it right cos it doesn't really seem an unemotional, rational and logical argument to me. It sounds like the tantrum of some over-entitled little emperor who has let the emotions of his penis override all rationality.

I agree with the suggestion on a previous thread. Punters should have to put in some hours on the job before they are allowed to buy 'services'. Actually, I would have no problem with prostitution if the punters just hired each other. They have common interests and views so know what to expect and won't complain, and could make some extra cash by bringing a 'great experience' to other unfortunate souls. Surely they wouldn't object to giving something back to the community.

ok, I had more to say than I thought Blush ... rant over

WhentheRed · 26/03/2014 22:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 26/03/2014 22:01

Only assembly line workers work uninterruptedly during their shifts.

What? No they don't. What country are you posting from?

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 21:53

to me it is fairly clear that you guys lack critical thinking skills and react emotionally to documentaries, reports, etc. designed to make you react emotionally instead of rationally

Oh my sides!!!

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 21:52

What reports have you read? What other areas of women's rights have you informed yourself on?

Are you a punter?

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 21:51

I think if your knowledge and information about prostitution come from people you are paying so they will pretend not to find you repulsive, you're going to have a very particular outlook.

Baleno · 26/03/2014 21:50

How do you inform yourself about women's rights and the issues affecting women in prostitution.

By reading articles and reports, watching documentaries, etc. The way you guys do when you want to grasp a subject in a general way, without being hindered by your personal experience.

It's fairly clear from your comments here you have some knowledge gaps.

Maybe, but if so then you guys are not helping me to fill them.

On the other hand, to me it is fairly clear that you guys lack critical thinking skills and react emotionally to documentaries, reports, etc. designed to make you react emotionally instead of rationally.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 26/03/2014 21:48

Maths: Not Baleno's strong point.

Knowledge of working hours: Not Baleno's strong point.

But, meh, what does he care? As long as these men that have a right to buy sex are happy? Well. meh...

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 21:46

How do you come by your information about how women in prostitution work? We have presented various information points and all you seem to have is "numbers don't add up". Are you a punter?

Baleno · 26/03/2014 21:43

No its not unlikely Baleno. 6 hrs is only 3/4 of my working day. It doesn't look unlikely from here. Looks very likely.

Only assembly line workers work uninterruptedly during their shifts. Hence, again, numbers don't add up.

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 21:42

From De Speigel:

The business has become tougher, says Nuremberg social worker Andrea Weppert, who has worked with prostitutes for more than 20 years, during which the total number of prostitutes has tripled. According to Weppert, more than half of the women have no permanent residence, but instead travel from place to place, so that they can earn more money by being new to a particular city.

Today "a high percentage of prostitutes don't go home after work, but rather remain at their place of work around the clock," a former prostitute using the pseudonym Doris Winter wrote in a contribution to the academic series "The Prostitution Law." "The women usually live in the rooms where they work," she added.

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 21:40

Are you a punter baleno?

How do you inform yourself about women's rights and the issues affecting women in prostitution. It's fairly clear from your comments here you have some knowledge gaps.

Baleno · 26/03/2014 21:39

Err because they need the money Baleno.

And if they need the money, why do you want to deny them the opportunity to earn it?

scallopsrgreat · 26/03/2014 21:34

Err because they need the money Baleno. Whether they need money or not is separate to whether they want to have sex with a man old enough to be their grandfather.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 26/03/2014 21:33

Often, they don't even need to advertise Baleno.

Obviously, you're intelligent enough to work out why that would be.

scallopsrgreat · 26/03/2014 21:32

No its not unlikely Baleno. 6 hrs is only 3/4 of my working day. It doesn't look unlikely from here. Looks very likely.

SabrinaMulhollandJjones · 26/03/2014 21:32

There's nothing like hearing it straight from the punter's mouth (or keyboard), eh, baleno?

Baleno · 26/03/2014 21:32

If prostitutes don't want to have sex with their clients then why do they advertise their services?

FloraFox · 26/03/2014 21:30

the-invisible-men.tumblr.com/

Punter 147:

She should be making it quite clear to the agency when she can and can't be booked and leave suitable rest periods in between, not only for her own well-being but for the good of her career. Greed has clearly taken over here and she and the agency are trying to fit as many punts into a day as humanly possible.

Are you a punter baleno?