Another school uniform one - ties?

Technical- so that means that girls have to wear something they won't routinely wear in the workplace so that boys get to practice what they will?

I really agree with this.

As for what they should be wearing why do they need to "practice" 15 years at being grown up anyway? Why not just let them wear a practical uniform for children as that's what the are and they don't work in a formal office anyway.

Comfy trousers and a polo top, same for everyone.. no ridiculous formal adult dress.. ties are as stupid as heels anyway.. what's that old saying about starting the day with tying a noose around your own neck?

And we are. But you keep referring to adult female forms of dress vs adult male forms of dress. And you are trying to apply adult norms to children.

I think that if the rules for girls and boys were different, you could find fault with that too.

Of course they have to confirm to school rules. I thought we were discussing what those school rules should be,

They are not women. They are girls. Schoolgirls. Who are obliged to conform to school rules. When they get to adulthood, then they are women. What age are you talking about here? Sixth form or high school?

"Honestly, I think you are reading too much into it."

Amazing how often people say this when women are being forced to conform to male norms!

Smart office attire for women does not include a tie.

And why on earth should school uniform reflect "smart office attire" anyway?

I complained when they were going to remove ties for girls at DCs school. On two grounds mainly.
a) They give a special Honors tie for high achievement outside school (at least County level in Sports, Music, Dance or life saving). If girls didn't have a tie their achievements wouldn't be celebrated the same way.
b) The shirts they were going to change to (as well as ugly) have been made shorter by the stingy manufacturers, which means girls can't raise their arms without exposing their mid-riff. So most girls have to wear vests under them.

My children have all learnt to tie ties pretty quickly, but I think you can get clip ons too.

I think it's fine and just a reflection of smart workplace attire.

OP if you worked in an office where smart business dress was worn, would you wear a tie in the name of equality?

Honestly, I think you are reading too much into it.

All schools have to wear ties here. I used to get lines every day as I wouldnt wear mine as I cant tie them.

Well, that is how this thread started...

I would hate the scarfs. Ties are worn by businessmen. Scarfs are worn by uniformed service personnel.

Our senior school suggested putting the girls into scarves, bit like some airline hostess uniforms

I wasn't keen on that idea myself, thought it would look awful, some boys would still complain that the girls didn't have to wear a tie and lots of girls would rather wear a tie

Then why default to male? Why not default to female for once?

But as I said, lots of schools have ties for boys and not girls. I don't think equality legislation comes into it.

I went to an all girls school which was founded over 300 years ago and has at no point in it's history admitted boys. Ties were part of our winter uniform. As were felt bowler hats, to be worn on three occasions a year. We looked like twats.

I agree that shoehorning girls into mens clothes to allow boys to practise at being men is perverse.

No, I'm not saying that at all. I think the uniforms for girls and boys should be different but whenever a school does that (or hasn't bowed to the pressure to make them the same) there's outrage from people insisting on equality.

I don't think it is about equality- loads of schools have ties for boys and not for girls. Equality legislation allows for differentiation.

I agree with Martorana re the implication being girls need to dress as boys in order to be educated but I am largely on the fence.

I think it's reasonable for boys to wear ties as adult men to largely wear ties.
Cheap white shirts are generally smartened up by a tie.
My dd likes wearing a tie.
I wear a tie more frequently than my male DP does (not for work-just because I look awesome in ties)
My teenage girl neighbour thinks her non-tie uniform is 'too girly'
I don't think girls should be forced into boys clothes so I don't want ties to be compulsory for girls.

In conclusion, I haven't got a clue where I stand on this.

Technical- so that means that girls have to wear something they won't routinely wear in the workplace so that boys get to practice what they will?

No, exactly, that's my point. They weren't introduced as part of the uniform for girls in mainstream school until equality dictated that they should be.

They were worn by girls going to school because that's what boys wore. Ties have never been a routine part of women's clothing.

I don't think it is Martorana. It does make sense for boys to wear ties, they need to know what is appropriate for smart occasions as adults and they won't get that experience anywhere else. But, you can't make boys wear them if girls don't also because everyone has to be treated equally.

Personally I think school uniform should mirror what would be acceptable in a reasonably smart workplace , for both sexes, but that would make the boys' and girls' uniforms different which would never do.

But they are girls, not women, aren't they? And for as long as I can remember, ties are worn by girls at school. I am going back 40 years. I don't see how you can project adult norms onto children.

It's all about male being the norm, female the anomaly.

I think ideally no ties for anyone. But definitely no ties for girls, because they aren't part of an adult woman's dress.

So, what do we think?

1. ties should not be compulsory for either,
2. ties compulsory for both,
3. compulsory for boys, not girls, or
4. something else?