Conversation overheard on phone on bus - sums a lot up :(

It's like he's describing Patriarchy and denying it exists in the same breath.

Truly marvellous.

I did it to be considered attractive, or, more accurately, acceptable
Again seeking attention/status
So what if you would be considered unattractive. Boys wouldn't approach you?
Is it necessarily a bad thing?

At the end of the day your choice was you wanted the attention of men/boys so you made yourself 'more attractive' through make up. So it was your choice.

stop bullshit magazines with fat-shaming/no-make-up shocker/what was she wearing type articles
It's women who buy and write those stupid magazines.
It's women who try to impress/ridicule each other when it comes to clothing (status).

Men are not suppose to worry about anything.
Men should bottle up all their emotions or risk ridicule.

Women value status and attention more than men.

In most cases women dress-up to impress other women (status).
Selfies, 'inspirational quotes', broadcasting to the world they have lost a pound (attention).

Ready, I hate that ad too. Think it's Nivea. It's a classic example of the unfairness girls and women face. All our lives we're pressured to care about our looks and then when we do we get slated for vanity.

It's bullshit.

I know that advert you mean Ready. It's so annoying.

Yeah it's a common stereotype that women take ages to get ready and are a pain in the arse for being so high maintenance etc.

Well stop trying to flog them make/up/toiletries/fashion/cosmetic surgery 24/7, stop bullshit magazines with fat-shaming/no-make-up shocker/what was she wearing type articles, stop having different school uniforms for boys and girls and on and on.

Women, you're a mess! love that sketch.

LordFocus It sounds like you have not yet realised that patriarchy is the very air we breathe. No female behaviour in society happens in a vacuum.

or is that regimen

I don't think anyone can truly sincerely believe that men are under as much pressure to wear make up as women?

Has anyone seen the advertisement for Nutrogena (I think) that basically shows a woman's facial regime and then theirs for men?

Then a voive over. 'Men's skin care...it's not like womens'

The joke being that womens is over the top and painful and generally horrible.. but men's doesn't have to be winds me right up considering they sell all the shit women are abusing themselves with and then take the piss out of the women who use it for using it. Yes, aren't we stupid

I can't find the commercial so I've just stuck the Mitchel and Webb video up. It's pretty much the same thing

It's funny, I have never conformed to the standards in the media, and it wasn't until I left home that I realised how much it trickles into everyday life. Whenever I get dressed up to go out I'm told I should dress like that/put makeup on/do my hair like that more often (not by DH though!) The worst part is that it's usually other women - who know how much time, effort, money and pain is involved.

Kinda makes me glad I grew up wearing my male cousins' hand me downs. I hated it at the time, but now I appreciate the way it shaped my view of fashion!

Lord

I truly doubt anyone said that women and girls naturally like to look good for themselves and meant it in the way you construe it...i.e. that make up/heel/fashion etc. are something women would do without socialisation. I also think the words 'choice' and 'freewill' would not have been used in this context; not in the way you use them there ^.

We are all products of our society and yes, Many girls don't feel the need to conform to an un-maintainable standard when it comes to looks but many more do. It can take courage to go against gender norms.

The phrases you use ("Females were doing themselves a disservice" and "objectifying themselves or making themselves a product of media pressure") come from a place of misunderstanding. Pressure to 'objectify yourself' is patriarchy in action and I find it ridiculous that you reckon women can easily just wise up and give over. The sanctions for not conforming are real.

You'll be telling us that we're our own worst enemy next.

Many girls don't feel the need to conform to an un-maintainable standard when it comes to looks. I had a similar debate not long ago with the boot on the other foot. My view was that females were doing themselves a disservice by collaborating with societal pressure and being so preoccupied with their looks. At that time, the MN feminists argued the other way - that it was their choice and their free will to dress up and look good - that women and girls naturally like to look good for themselves and that I was a misogynist for taking the view that they were objectifying themselves or making themselves a product of media pressure. Which way around it is?

Agree with OP.

The face that men are suffering more and more from the focus on appearance and unrealistic standards of beauty/fitness is very depressing, but doesn't alter the basic point here.

A nice cider, not vodka

I am a lot less bothered about my appearance now but teens and early twenties were spent with achey feet, tight uncomfortable clothing, worrying about weight, spending too much time and money on hair and make up etc.

Yes, you can argue that was all my choice but I didn't choose to risk breaking my ankle/paint my face etc. just for fun I did it to be considered attractive, or, more accurately, acceptable, because I was socialised form a young age to believe that shit was important.

And no man I know has every worried about any of that ^.

Something that really gets my goat nowadays is the backlash against girls/women who are "too made up". Taking the piss out of fake tans, HD brows, fashion-victims etc. These girls are trying their best to look good and conform to what is expected of them; they put a lot of money and effort into it but get the piss ripped anyway because they didn't do it quite well enough.

There's a few people being really disingenuous on this thread.

How can you argue that men are under the same level of (bullshit) pressure as women are regarding looks?!

I agree men's grooming/physique standards are getting more intense (though having silly, unrealistic standards for both sexes is not the equality anyone wants) but they aren't comparable.

I agree, depressing OP, and sentiments I can really identify with, you could have been sat behind me!

Sorry but that is rubbish about men not having insecurities about their weight and image. I have a 17 year old son and boys are obsessed with having six packs and a toned body these days like the guys they see in the media. Many of them straighten their hair and spend ages on their looks too.

Male eating disorders have increased massively: mengetedstoo.co.uk/research-by-the-ulc-shows-increase-of-eating-disorders-in-men-and-boys-in-the-uk

Original post is very outdated. In the past men didn't care about their image as much as women, I agree, but things are different now.

This is a really good example of the insidiousness and the drip drip effect of all the messages women get. Any choice they have is loaded. This woman probably didn't even view it in terms of choice.

I understand where you are coming from - don't get me wrong. There is of course social conditioning but I'm just tempted to take the view the OP is making a big assumption based on this conversation. I mean, you don't HAVE to wear high heels and make up. Society may force a lot of expectations on young women but there is a choice - no one is going to have a pop at her for not getting her make-up right. On the other hand, I do acknowledge the fact that society WOULD have a pop at her for going out with hairy armpits. There is an issue at stake, I agree, although I'm not sure this is the best example.