Minister for Sport's opinion about women's sports.. gah

I'm not dismissing the sport of cheerleading. I'm saying it has a problematic history that continues to this day in terms of objectifying women. And I'm saying that the minister's reference to cheerleading as a "feminine" sport was referencing and supporting this view of the appropriate role of women to be decorative objects.

But you can't dismiss the sport of cheerleading and say it isn't worthy, or that those who participate are only there for the titillation of men, because that is offensive, ridiculous, ignorant and wrong.

Lots of men participate in cheerleading as well. Pretty offensive to them.

Some cheerleaders are also eye pleasing rah-rah girls though.

The reality and image are different in both cases.

Roller Derby skaters are sportswomen.
Cheerleaders are sportswomen.

Sorry, I'm unclear. Are you trying to say the stereotypical image of roller derby is similar to the stereotypical image of cheerleading? Or that the reality and the image are different in both cases? Or what?

The modern day version of roller derby, started out with women wearing short skirts/hotpants, long socks, fishnet tights, vests etc.

The stereotypical image of a 'derby girl' is as described.

The reality is women in sports clothing. Not dolled up, in the least.

Roller Derby grew out of public roller skating gatherings. These evolved in to races and the races into what is basically roller derby. It was normally co-ed and pretty much died out in the 70s. The women only version started up more recently and did not evolve from a version in which women were put on show for men.

Mass participation activity? What do you mean?

Roller derby has a long and messy history, mainly as a mass participation activity. It doesn't have significant history of women being dressed up to titilate men, though of course, it has happened.

Cheerleading on the other hand is not all about extreme cheer and the like. The original activity of cheering on male sports still exists and is still, to some extent, lauded as an ideal for young girls in the media, especially American media that permeates teen life. It is this image that makes it seem "feminine" in the way the minister was using, not the reality of the athleticism and power of the fiercly competitive cheer competitions.

Okay, so what about roller derby, that someone linked to above?

That was historically a 'show' sport, one could assume for the benefit or titillation of men. Women were expected to be made up and look glamorous. It isn't now. Neither is cheerleading - hence people are becoming annoyed that others are demeaning it.

It isn't anything to do with the 'reputation' of the sports you mentioned. At all. Those preconceptions are wrong, and ignorant. The best way to challenge those preconceptions is to show people that they are wrong.

The issue wasn't that this woman was promoting those sports. It is that she said 'you can still do sports and look glamorous' and then used the examples she did, which other women here have backed up by declassifying them as 'proper' sports. The entire problem with her comments was that they were based around how you look when participating, and that there is such a thing as 'feminine' which all women should uphold and therefore should limit themselves to sports others consider 'feminine'.

It isn't about putting it in a box, it's about understanding cheerleading's historical connection to being on the sidelines supporting men and its continued connection with a culture of women being glamorized (and needing to look glamorous) even when they are in the midst of a physically challenging activity.

It is the common thread of all the sports the minister listed - this connection with how we look. The need for women to be decorative.

Meanwhile our female Olympians have been voicing fears that their looks are considered more important than their feats on the track/in the arena. (www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/17/sportswomen-glamour-deeds-survey)

The problem with the sports minister talking about cheerleading, ballet and gym as ways to get women into sport more isn't that those aren't physically challenging activities, it's that promoting sports that have a reputation for their participants to be "good looking" in a decorative sense only prepetuates the ideas that women should be constantly thinking about how they look and that visible physical exertion isn't feminine.

I think people are referring to the old style of cheerleading,

I think people are determined to put Cheerleading firmly in a box, you're wasting your breath trying to convince them otherwise.

Time to leave this thread to the dinosaurs.....

I haven't seen much UK Olympics coverage. I have been in Canada for the last week. It has been wall-to-wall coverage there, and the women's teams and athletes have had extensive coverage. Again, it helps that they have so many outstanding athletes and medal prospects. But do people feel that there is an inherent bias in the UK media, or is it more widespread?

Cheerleading has always taken hours of training. The video is pretty much what cheer leaders do on side lines and at half times at Football games ime, just without pom poms. No one has suggested that it's not hard work, all that has been suggested is that the women doing it are at sports events for the titillation of men, which of course they are. It doesn't for one second take away the hard work and gymnastic ability of the athletes.

Many troupes/teams also compete in competitions such as in the video. So it is both and adjunct and a sport in it's own right. Cheerleaders haven't waved pom poms and jumped about in short skirts for about 20 years.

I wonder if the reason that there has been good coverage of the women's events in Sochi is because that's where we had medal hopefuls? Would they have shown the women's speed skating if we hadn't expected to get some kind of medals?

I think people are referring to the old style of cheerleading, where girls in short skirts waved Pom Pom's and jumped about.

Maybe google modern cheerleading, you might be 'enlightened somewhat'.

Are people getting their terms mixed up here?

My daughter is in a cheerleading team. This is what they do;

This is Cheer Extreme. It takes hours of training per week. She is shattered afterwards, and frequently covered in aches, pains and bruises. It involves (mostly) girls from 5 or 6 upwards. It is a sport in its own right, not an adjunct to another event. It is massive in the USA and getting bigger in the UK every year. It would be a pity if such skill and dedication was written off as titillation for men. It isn't.

Ooh in my googling I found this on wikihow.

here

Was scrolling through the "steps" and was wondering if they were going to allude to the fact that professional cheerleaders have to be, well, hot, and lolled when i got to Point 8:

"Get the look. Cheerleaders are not only fit, they are gorgeous too. In order to be a professional cheerleader, you need a pretty face, a curvy body, and a tan, without counting other things. To make your face gorgeous, you should get into a skin care routine of washing, exfoliating, toning, applying an anti aging serum, and moisturizing twice a day everyday. For your body, do exercises for a bigger bottom like squats, lunges, wall sits, calve raises, leg raises, and kickbacks. For a small waist, do exercises like the hundred, crunches, sit ups, oblique crunches, bicycle crunches, and horizontal side supports. For perkier breasts, do push ups, tricep push ups, dive bombers, and side push ups. Also, massage your breasts daily. For your tan body, tan once a week in the sun and use a self-tanner daily. Other things to work on include white teeth, perfect hair, and neat makeup. So, go to your dentist and do everything they say. Whiten your teeth with baking soda, using a baking soda and water mixture to brush your teeth once a month. Start this at twelve. For perfect hair, use a good quality shampoo made for your hair type along with a matching conditioner. Also, use a heat protectant spray when styling and a deep moisturizing treatment once a week. For your makeup, wear lots of mascara on your natural lashes unless you wear fake lashes, in which you should wear only a little. Wear a pink lip gloss or lipstick, never fuchsia. Use a slightly shimmery eyeshadow, but not too shimmery. Glam it up but don't wear blue eyeshadow, red lipstick, or glitter. A nice pink, gold or brown eyeshadow is great, so is pink lipstick. Wear light foundation, powder, and concealer. Use a light blush too."

I can't believe that anyone genuinely can't see the difference between a bunch of people doing eg a marathon, and the average cheerleading ensemble at the NFL.

Just google "marathon" and click images, then google "NFL cheerleaders" and click images, and you might be enlightened somewhat.

The fact that cheerleading is bloody difficult and requires a lot of fitness, athleticism etc does not detract from the fact that modern cheerleading at the NFL etc ie the professional cheerleaders, sex is a huge component.

Do you think the mens sports are there to arouse?

They often wear shorts / lyrca / topless / vests etc. Do you consider this is for spectator arousal?

Or do you know that it is conducive to sport to wear clothing that allows freedom of movement? Let's assume you do know this.

Why is it 'sporty' for men, and 'arousing' for women?

For goodness sake of course they are there to arouse men. That is entirely what it's about. It's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

Maybe we should have the "Boiler Suit Olympics" then? Would that please you? How dare these women wear clothing that allows them freedom of movement.

I could argue that cheerleaders cover up more than gymnasts, but that would fall into the common trap on these pages of attacking another female sport/hobby/pastime rather than accepting and supporting the right of women to undertake whatever sports/hobbies they like for themselves and without judgement....

hellomarmalade, I think their excuse reason would be that girls don't "want" to do rugby and boys don't "want" to dance. And of course that's true to an extent - but only because of conditioning from an early age and of course those activities respectively being marketed as sports for one particular gender. The other day my nephews refused point blank to even watch my DD in a 20 minute ballet display. If only they had come, they would have seen that about 20% of the participants were actually boys. One day with any luck we will have 50%!

Besides, why do men and wommens sports have to be different. Why can't girls do rugby, or boys do dance at school. Can they actually come up with a reason?

What?! I'm 14, and I can safely say that at our school the sport people least look forward to is gymnastics or even dance. I enjoy them myself, but only as much as I like football.

The coverage of the winter olympics has been really refreshing - equal time and importance given to the women's events with the women's achievements valued in their own right and not as some adjunct or afterthought to male sport.

That shouldered DD and her schoolfriends.