Feeling conflicted about (childless) man's feminist views on mothering

Buffy

"I would be willing to bet that she didn't intend to come across as criticising other women who don't feel strong about the physical aspects of birth and motherhood. Yet, this is what seems to have happened as a result of this young man sharing it."

Well, another result is that I have re-watched that video and reminded myself how ace Hollie McNish is. With a bit of luck, so will some other MNetters too. So it's not all bad!

Fair enough, Dusk. It's just that I read in the OP's OP an acknowledgement from her that she may be being unfair in her judgments of him. And I guess I am still struck by the fact that judging someone one doesn't like by their FB posts seems like a hiding to nothing. If a woman who does like him and doesn't think he's an arse enjoys the poem and is glad that he linked to it, that view would be as valid as the OP's, no? It's just it wouldn't make it onto this board, obviously. I know this is a hypothetical, but it doesn't strike me as a particularly wild guess.

In this particular case, I am taking the OP's sense of ickiness as my guide, and unpacking various angles that may have contributed to this - without knowing any more about it. I would not say that it is definitely all about x, y, z, how should I know? But the OP feels icky and I am, helpfully I hope, putting forward a few angles that may help her articulate of analyse what she doesn't like about this, at least to herself.

If the OP had posted "this sweet chap I know heartened me by ...." I wouldn't feel the need to propose ways in which to explain how he was being an arse, because there would have been no suggestion of him being an arse.

I think what is happening here is that the OP feels wrong-footed by not being able to articulate something and I think we should honour her icky feelings rather than brush them off just because we can't prove he is an arse. None of us know him, or who he is, he won't suffer by the suggestion that he has an arse. But it may help the OP resolve how she feels and whether she allows herself to be irritated or not, and if so, put the irritation in its place.

Not contributing much to the discussion, but personally I hate everyone who says anything akin to approving me as a mother - who do they think they are and why do they think I need their approval?

Yes, I'm touchy as hell in RL. More so than on here.

Buffy, I think the challenge is partly in moving from the general to the specific and back again. In general, I agree that men all too often co-opt women's voices and that they should not. In this particular case, I don't agree that it is possible to know for sure that this is what has happened.

Dusk, you're assuming an awful lot. Not least that this man was celebrating women's bodies. Isn't it more likely that he was celebrating a woman poet who was celebrating women's bodies? Or is that de facto not possible because he's a man?

I personally think your interpretation stomps out the poet's voice, and says that the man's voice is more important, which feels faintly ridiculous when his voice is limited to clicking the "Share" button on Facebook, and it was the poet who - literally - did all the talking. It also feels weird to focus on the man at the expense of the woman poet.

But saying that men are not allowed to share a poem written by a woman about her experience - doesn't that label female poets (or any type of artist really) as being for "women only".

As a woman, am I not meant to form an opinion on or share the poetry of Wilfred Owen, because he is writing about his experience of a uniquely male situation?

I'm struggling with this TBH.

Artetas, the OP says,

"that was all about the physical changes motherhood brings and how women are great, strong etc "

So in other words it was directly about women's bodies. (So that snippy nonsense about cattle rustling is just nonsense)

For a woman to celebrate the physical changes that motherhood has wrought in her body can be liberating, and radical, as they are changes that the patriarchal mainstream tends to think of as "downgrading" her physically, in the sense that being heavier and marked is to be less conventionally attractive.

A man celebrating women's bodies is basically being an arse, because women's bodies should belong to women and men shouldn't get to decide what is valuable and what is not, and traditionally under patriarchy men have been able to objectify women's bodies, make value judgements upon them as currency. So reversing it and going "woo mothers' bodies are cool" is not digging this particular arse out of the hole of ascribing to himself a right to have an opinion on something that is nothing to do with him and he should shut up about. Even if it has nothing to do with attractiveness, he is saying "women's bodies are great under these circumstances", or in other words taking an instrumental view of them when they are doing certain jobs. Men need to shut up about women's bodies. They seriously fucking do, except to say nice things to the woman they are with, in private

I think it is a leap to say he is endorsing one particular version of motherhood. He may have been endorsing the energy of the performance, the ability of the poet to engage with her audience, he might have enjoyed the rhythm and flow of the words or the poet's skill in her craft. He might even have thought "Wow, I hadn't thought about it like that before".

At the moment, all we know is he said something like "Here's abc talking about motherhood and xyz" - which is really too little to judge upon without knowing him.

Buffy, that just doesn't seem like a valid distinction. You essentially seem to be saying that it's fine for Hollie McNish to post a poem, but the only people who ought to be re-posting it are other mothers, and even then they ought not to do it really because some mothers who may potentially read the poem may not have had a positive experience and may be rankled by a poem that refers to birth / breastfeeding / some other aspect of motherhood in positive terms. That seems really quite unfair on her and on others who hear her poetry and want to share it.

Buffy, it clarifies your reasoning, but I still disagree, I'm afraid, for the reason Artetas has given.

Ubik1, I'm afraid I didn't realise you were making a joke; it read like you were making a serious point instead. It could be that I'm overly serious, or it could have been that the joke wasn't very good...

Buffy, in your analogy, you are worried about being seen to appropriate. Now, if this suck-up nobhead colleague had re-worded the poem, I can see your point. But isn't he just posting the poet speaking her work? He is giving her another channel to voice her work. He is not re-writing it from his own pov. Don't you think that that is a huge difference?

I bet it was Hollie McNish. She's fab.

thankyou for positioning me as anti-feminist Buffy

Was the poet Hollie McNish? If so, she has written an album of poems inspired by becoming a mother which is definitely worth listening to.

I think my feelings would vary depending whether he had posted the item as if he was taking credit for the poem in some way or if he was simply sharing or reposting something he has seen elsewhere and enjoyed. But it is very hard to judge that without knowing him personally.

Christ I was only attempting to lighten the mood. Not everything posted on Facebook has great significance. He may not even have read this oh so important poem.

Forgot it was FWR where everyone has had a sense of humour bypass