What would you do if a university student wanted to bring her newborn to class?

But where can't we take our babies?

I take mine (ok, they are not babies, are 4 and 2) anywhere I want to, except that they don't enjoy going out past their bedtimes so I don't take them anywhere in the evenings. When they are old enough to enjoy going to the theatre or something like that, they will be old enough to be taken there and will behave. I take them.... everywhere, except work. you can even take them to the pub nowadays (not that we go to the pub much but we could)

they are welcome in my friends' houses, in cinemas, in stately homes, in museums, in shops, in parks, in cafes, on buses, on trains.... where else is there?

Oh right, work. I don't want them at work.

I would say that new dads should be able to take their babies places with them too although the breastfeeding angle obviously doesn't apply.

YYYY Buffy to your post at 10:25:30.

In my experience of having a baby when I was 20 (I wasn't a student), I could concentrate perfectly fine when DS was a newborn. Once he became a toddler, not so much, and now, I can barely concentrate at all when he is around but at that age he was no trouble. Actually he was a very easy baby which is possibly why I feel this way, but for me there wasn't a lot of thinking required with a newborn - any time they squeak you feed them and that's that really.

Right - it's only if we buy into the idea that children are inextricably the responsibility of women that child-free space = women-free space, and I don't buy that, and I don't want to give up child-free space, and I don't want to give up the opportunities to do and think and be without children

It would be the unpredictability that I wouldn't like. I like order & plans!

Get up, pack kit, pack baby, get transport to uni.

Get in, sit down, equipment out, baby starts grizzling, leave lecture (and move some distance away I assume so the noise doesn't affect anyone).

Go back to lecture (or not). You have no guarantee that you won't just waste time, effort & money as well as unsettling the baby

Really doesn't appeal!

I'd also hate the fact that I might miss a particular lecture that I'd wanted to see, or feel guilty because I had to drop out of a group presentation at the last minute leaving the others to pick up the work I should be doing.

On the other hand it may run like a dream! Only way to find out is to try it OP. It's just not for me!

PS - I wholeheartedly agree (and love) Dreamings comment -

My feminist agenda does not include the collective raising of children, but the equal raising of children between men and women. So I disagree that being a good feminist means I need to tolerate people's children everywhere.

Procrastinating (doesn't actually sound like you do much of that, if you don't mind me saying so) - "bloody furious" is an approach much more on my wavelength, on a gut level, than "I wonder whether the idea that it requires a total change in a mother's life has to be everyone's reality". To me that sounds like the sort of mealy-mouthed "hey maybe we don't need a desk each! Maybe we don't need lunchbreaks!" that is the trendy way to make people do more with less.

Having children was a total change in my life. I would prefer that to be respected and accommodated, by maternity leave followed by flexible working, than "questioned" or ignored or written out.

Completely agree dreaming, I'm bloody furious about it actually. My male boss was on TV last week blarting about his senior status and pronouncing his expert views. I was struck by the difference between his situation (married, his wife does all the childcare) and mine.

Thanks, I am bloody proud of myself Dusk, but I should not have to do this.

Exactly.

I'm actually going to be working on a MOOC this spring. It's interesting to see the assessments they build in to make sure students do the online work, I'm curious to see how it pans out.

There's no guarantee the student sitting in the classroom is paying attention either, of course

Procrastinating, that sounds very hard and I hope you are bloody proud of yourself. I think I would have had a mental breakdown doing that. Or several.
I believe you when you say the work didn't suffer, but... doesn't sound fun.

I totally missed that, actually, I just didn't factor in that that was what it was about (mistrust of "slacking" with different work patterns), with academia, although I have worked in work places that are like that.

Surely the solution, whether it's work or academia, is to set quantifiable objectives to performance that are independent of work patterns (or in other words, make the whole thing actually about what it is supposedly about, instead of some manager's stupid paranoid power trip)

Procrastinating, I can't help but think it's unfortunate that while your work didn't suffer, and your children didn't suffer, YOU had to suffer because of that level of multitasking.

Why should women have to put their needs last all the time?

How many male students and academics find themselves in that position?

I don't think we can really attack educational inequalities as long as this kind of disparity exists.

I do think we should help individual students as much as possible, but in terms of larger principles to fight for, I would rather fight for women to have the time and space to devote themselves solely to learning on an equal basis, rather than setting new precedents for multitasking.

Interesting, the "get away with" issue. In general I think that suspicion is the biggest waste of time at work. Right now I have the toughest boss I have ever had, in terms of the actual substantive demands on me, and he couldn't give a shit where I am, ever. (Actually this is probably not true, now I think of it: more likely, he has learnt to trust me to be where I am supposed to be, and had he learnt not to trust me he would have sacked me)

I do understand the point that, if we encourage women to bring babies to class we're supporting the idea that mothers should be with their babies, and that's not brilliant. I think what you say about breaking away from the idea there's only one way to work is a key thing, buffy. There are lots of options though. Loads of lectures are recorded already. Postgraduate students often skype supervisors, though you can't do a class like that. I don't see why a discussion forum couldn't work on occasion.

The issue seems to me to be that we're quite worried about how students might try to 'get away' with things if we change the system - eg., people worried recording lectures would mean students who'd otherwise have attended chose not to bother coming (it doesn't).

Dusk, I sort of agree with you, even though my experience goes against your point. I have worked as a lecturer through having 3 babies and looking after them at home. I write lectures, chapters, papers and mark essays while looking after children. I only use childcare for going out to do lectures, seminars and conferences. It is possible and I did it because I had to. So if a student has to bring her baby then she should be able to and I would allow it. It shows determination and commitment.

But I wish I didn't have to work and look after children at the same time, it has been incredibly hard.

Then again, all my feedback & career progress suggests that having children around hasn't damaged my performance at all. I suffered having no mental space and having too much stress, the work hasn't suffered and the children are happy.

freyasnow, we are emphasising slightly different angles I think because I have already dismissed as obvious that of course, in this case, camaleon should allow her student to bring the newborn if she wants to. As an exception, as a way to avoid excluding the student and scuppering her chances to be marked on that presentation and pass. But i can't take that as far as thinking that it is a good thing in principle that parents take babies everywhere they go.

I take issue with the idea that women who bear children must have babies attached to them all the time and the only way they can be facilitated to do anything, is with the babies. I think that is defeatist. I love working without my children. I have taken babies to necessary meetings - as exceptions - and was glad that I got away with it, but it was hard, and I only did it because I was determined to get that meeting done. But if it were then more frequently suggested, on a creeping scale of meetings less important to me and less critical to my job, and I kept hearing that I should be at this, that and the other meeting, and "you can just take the baby with you" I would have felt very pressured and stressed. And probably stopped working.

People keep saying that this is not the way they want it to go, but this is the way it always bloody does go. Everything that purports to be about women being able to choose to do more stuff always turns into women being expected to do all the work, all the time, at the same time.

I haven't had all that many answers to my question about whether people really want to work without childcare and whether they are as good at it without childcare? A few examples, but are they exceptional?

I feel that women have so much to prove at work / university, and while many of you seem to think that excluding babies = excluding women, I think that including babies will soon lead to - well, we already have women being expected to perform better than men, for less money and less opportunity, while doing all the housework, booking the childminder, doing the school admin, wearing high heels and doing all the necessary corporate "grooming" bollocks - all this already - but NOW, if she actually takes the baby with her, this is supposed to be some "natural" extension of her that will not damage her energy, concentration or performance!

Many of the posts in this thread have conflated the baby with the mother. Someone even accused me of calling mothers needy or something when I meant that babies are - because there are so many posts that don't recognise the baby as a whole other person. I don't want to exclude the mother, I just think she might do better without the baby actually attached to her the whole time and if we accept that they necessarily come as a package it feels retrograde to me. there are various posts that are quite sniffy about "just not wanting to have babies around". I do find babies tiring. I love my children and my friends' and families' children, but after a day with 6 kids (I don't have 6, I mean when we all get together) I love it when they are in bed and I can eat without someone putting a chewed chip in my dinner or wiping snot on my cardigan. I am astonished at the people who insist that they can work with their kids around and that kids should go everywhere. Yes, you get windows of opportunity with a newborn asleep in a sling - you can't necessarily pick or plan around them though. Yes a 6 year old might colour under the desk - they take 6 years to get to that though (actually maybe 4 if you are lucky). From 2 months to 4 years - seriously?

I taught a small group computing at my uni 22 years ago, with a 2 -3 month DD in tow. No-one batted an eyelid. Mind you, actually giving a lecture might have been rather different.

As to where the babies go. I would have been very uncomfortable indeed leaving my newborn with anyone. She got very distressed if I was away from her for more than a few minutes. I'm not sure if I could have left her to attend a presentation, personally, when she was very young.

To be clear, I would go to extremely great lengths to help a student struggling with childcare. You're right that we do need to help and foster that change.

You're not ignorant, just more phone-tolerant than me obviously

I am a student with a baby. I would be very grateful if the uni considered doing what you are. I don't see the problem with having the baby in a presentation if she's willing to leave if the baby becomes disruptive.

It's not like you're saying she should attend every lecture with a baby in tow, just a few key sessions, if I've understood you correctly?

FWIW I have felt shut out of things since having a baby, and I do think society does need to address this if we're ever to get anywhere near to equality.

Sorry, dreaming.

I didn't mean to be faux-dsingenous. I see why it sounded like that. I guess I mean, if you are 19 or so - does it feel ok to do that?

I do honestly belive that for the system to chance, it needs us to help as well as be the ones who have the babies. But I do see I am ignorant here.