Rape apologism (not a real word, sorry) on a MN thread!

I think the definition of consent is very confusing at best.

If the statement that if you are too drunk to say yes is true then I have been raped by 2 people and also sexually assaulted by 2. I don't like to think of it as that. Although 1 rape and 1 sexual assault I agree was rape, as I had said to stop doing that or was underage. I do agree though that when drunk you can't give consent but I'd find it more a stationary rape than just rape. I'm not making much sense tonight, sorry. I mean most woman wouldn't like to see what happened to them as rape, because rape is such a dirty and provocative word.

I don't agree it's always the onus on the man. What about if the man is drunk and the woman is either sober or drunk and she touches him and he doesn't give permission to her? Does him being 'up' make it consent, because if so that's ridiculous and very wrong. If she has sex with him and he doesn't say yes or he does say no or he passes out/talks so slurred he's incoherent then surely the woman has raped the man or at very least, sexually assaulted him?

I am disgusted by some of those posters on that website by the way. It makes me feel :( that people can even think like that.

You know, this thing of alcoholic behaviour causing blackouts is true, but it is only true at a certain point of alcoholism. I have known many alcoholics and yes, people do things in blackout and appear stone cold sober to someone who isn't too close to them, but they are raging alcoholics by the time they get to that stage.

Someone who drinks normally, does not go into blackout without other very clear signs of drunkenness.

Ah yes, the grey area, the rapist's safe space. The space where he can get away with rape and not even have it recognised as rape.

Here's the thing. If you're in a grey area with someone in any other walk of life and there is a massive power imbalance between you or they are particularly vulnerable, you don't just decide to do what you want and rely on them to tell you they don't want to do it, do you? You err on the side of caution. You create the space to enable them to express what they want clearly, so that you don't bully them or strong-arm them into doing something you want to do but you are conscious that they might not. Because you are a decent person.

Only men in sexual situations with women, are not expected to behave like decent people in every other area of life behave. The main concern most people have, is not that men do not behave badly, but that we must not at all costs, call them rapists when they behave badly. Why is that then?

Scallops
You answer was, you can't know/probably not. No definitive answer

Snowshepherd, I haven't said drunk people can sometimes consent.

Beatrix, I wasn't being deliberately obtuse, I just didn't read properly.

And both of you, I already answered snowshepherd's question about 5 days ago - Wed 04-Dec-13 22:15:27 yet you saw fit to insist on another answer and made it personal.

I have been very clear that it is the actions of the man we should be looking at. Introducing 'grey areas' starts absolving men of their responsibility. Creating fictitious scenarios absolves men of their responsibility. You don't have to have sex with a drunk woman. Really you don't. Stop making it hard.

So you can not consent if you can't remember, finally someone can give an answer.

You use the words 'too drunk'. Can you define that term?

What an absurd post. The distinction between drunken sex and rape are not clear-cut either morally or legally.

When you are sober, you can consent (white). When you are paralytic you can not (black). As you drink, your capacity to choose is gradually eroded (grey).

Do you seriously believe in a threshold effect, such that someone can drink x pints and have the capacity to choose, but x pints plus 1 mouthful and be incapacitated, and furthermore that all concerned can reliably identify this threshold? This is what your assertion that there is no grey area implies.

No, I don't. Black spots in the memory are exactly an indicator of being 'too drunk.'

However, that is totally irrelevant - as the man has no idea whether the woman will have black spots in her memory in the morning, or not.

It was relevant to the topic. Hence asking the question.

Can you define 'too drunk'? Do you think you can have black spots in your memory without being 'too drunk'?

Scallops posts were perfectly clear to me.

If it's up to the man to ensure that the woman is not too drunk to be consenting to sex, then why is your question to scallops even relevant?

Yes, of course it is up to the man!! That's not what we have been discussing.

No, scallop wasn't clear about drunk sex, drunk consent, blackouts, etc. hence why I was trying to establish that. It was important to help me understand her position. Everyone sees this area differently

Why were you trying to do that? scallops has made her position perfectly clear.

Don't you think it's up to the man to ensure that the woman isn't too drunk to consent? Hint - rapists don't care. Men that aren't rapists do.

I didn't say that mullholland. There is either consent or no consent. Within that there can be grey areas when trying to establish this during an investigation.

I was trying to get scallop to define what they believed about drunken consent and other things on this thread, so that we could discuss it. Scallop didn't seem to want to so the thread stalled.

I'm wondering what laboured point snowshepherd is trying to make here.

There is no grey area to consent. Only rapists or rape apologists try to make out there is.

Scallop

is that the woman has genuinely forgotten that she had consented" No she didn't consent. She was too drunk to consent

You are being deliberately obtuse - there is no actual woman in the question. It's a general question.

No I wouldn't for the reasons stated above. There are other indicators of drunkenness, if you want to see them. And the true indicators of rape come from the man

So if someone indicates that they are drunk then they cannot have sex? But you also said drunk people can, sometimes, consent.

Scallop

Temper Temper - it was a cross-post, I hadn't seen the posts made after 16.30ish

"is that the woman has genuinely forgotten that she had consented" No she didn't consent. She was too drunk to consent.

Go away Beatrix. I have answered the bloody question.

No I wouldn't for the reasons stated above. There are other indicators of drunkenness, if you want to see them. And the true indicators of rape come from the man.

Scallop

Please answer snowshepherd's question - do you think you can consent and not remember It's obviously not a case of 'crying wolf' as the crucial point is that the woman has genuinely forgotten that she had consented. It really is not a difficult concept, is it ?.

For the avoidance of doubt, this is a general question not one relating to the OP - everyone agrees that the woman there in that case appears to have been deliberately lifted in order for the man to have non-consensual sex with her.

I agree. So it's hard for anyone to know. It's impossible to assume one way or another. You might say that part of consent is a 'grey area'.

I couldn't no.

Scallop
I'm concerned with all scenarios. Like I have said.
I'm not sure you answered the question, I'll ask again. Yes or no, can you consent and not remember?

I used the term rapist when talking about rape, snowshepherd.

I have answered the question.

I do think consent is important. It is rapists who don't. But it is a low bar to have (as I have already said). And it isn't consent that you seem to find so important. It is a specific, quite rare scenario.