Pole dancing exercise classes

Tbf I dare say any number of men could have had a good stare at my crotch when I performed ballet. It was just as much on view doing an arabesque as doing a pole move. The strength and agility needed is pretty much the same, the leotard showed more than the shorts do now.

If a tree falls in a forest...
If a person hangs upside down from a pole in shorts and there are no men waving fivers....just other clapping sweaty women/co-students or the dancer is alone in her studio/home...where is the objectification? The disempowerment? The patriarchal expectation of subjugation? The male gaze?

Another random q: how would you feel about a pal inviting you out to a can-can group dancing taster session evening activity?

I don't work out of the home at this time but when I did work in an office none of my colleagues were informed about my exercise regime in detail: I used to say I am off to fitness class I think, or dance class. Tbh I wouldn't discuss diet or exercise with people I worked with any more than I'd discuss my love life or my family's latest dramas!
I think a few people worked out I used to be a [ballet/contemporary] dancer but I didn't discuss that either.
Interesting q, why did you ask?

trucks has persuaded me anyway (not to rush out and try it exactly but to revise my opinion at least) her analogies are great I think

there is very little that isn't 'problematic' or couldn't be argued to be contributing to the wider dismal state of things for women - buying make up and shit for example - can't imagine people (self included) being quite so sneery of adult ballet classes when really practically everything about ballet is horrific

Posy, I meant that those were two possible approaches to fighting the link, if fighting was in the agenda.

I wasn't sure from Tracy's posts whether she was anti stripping anyway, hence the last line.

Acknowledging the link but not fighting it is Secret Option Number 3 (old gimmer Friends quote), as you say.

TBH, I can see how it's fun and gymnastic and a good workout - I feel like that about Zumba and ballet, so why not? It would be great if it wasn't problematic, but for me, it is. But I make plenty of choices to do things that are enjoyable but not feminist, so I'm not polishing my halo or anything.

Pole came out of strip clubs: it broke out, because it is hard and skilful and fun and exciting to do.
Capoeira came out of slaves practising fighting and self defence and escaping bondage and broke out because it is hard and skilful and fun etc etc.
Belly dancing came out of women preparing for labour and to please men who pretty much owned them: it broke out because you guessed it...

The origins of many dances, even the waltz were shocking and sleazy at the time and they broke out and went mainstream and changed and evolved.

I think pole is in that just-post transition stage and is mainstream now. Liking it isn't condoning stripping any more than liking capoeira is condoning slavery or liking belly dance condoning harems.

Doctrine I see what you're saying. But I'm of the belief that life is too short to worry about the wider implications that my personal innocent exercise regime has on wider society (none, I think- strip clubs are still going to exist regardless of whether or not I'm using a metal bar to exercise.) Even when I took classes, the money wasn't going into the pockets of some sleazy lap-dancing owner, it was normal ladies who were running a fitness class.

I really resent pole dancing being compared to drug consumption etc, that's not right at all. I'm not harming anyone else! I'm saying 'don't knock it till you've tried it' as there are a lot of misconceptions around pole dancing, like sadly some women think its extremely difficult, or they're too fat, or it's extremely risqué and you have to wear disco pants and heels.

TheDoctrine There is another answer of course, which is neither of your options, that is:

'I understand the link to stripping and I don't think I can overpower this at this time but I wish to continue this activity because:

• I think it has merit
• I enjoy it and don't personally associate it with stripping
• I associate it with gymnastics / athletics and think that through what I'm doing in time the link will change
• I am for personal choice and don't give a shiny shit

I'm not suggesting I prefer any of them incidentally, but it's disingenuous to suggest people may think of the 'right answer' and then think 'actually I don't care' or 'I will work around this'.

Flora I understand the sentiment, I really do, but I think it depends on how the word is used. Yes, this is a feminist board, but it isn't Feministing or Jezebel and whilst I do get it, I'm not sure others will. Thus it becomes more of a put down than a challenge, however unintentional.

As I say, I've done some pole fitness and I have mixed views about it. I don't see any harm in any individual woman going to pole fitness and actually it's good fun, but I do see harm in strip clubs (although I'm not an abolitionist and am vaguely sex positive still looking for a box to fit in ). It's a tricky one.

Tracy, I explained that pole dancing has strong links to stripping. Not in your class, but in society.

If you overheard a conversation about em watching pole dancing, which one do you think it would probably be?

You could fight that by trying to strengthen the links to gymnastics and pole dancing and hope that "wins" against the stripping link. Or you could fight it by saying "this form of exercise class is too closely linked with stripping by culture and therefore I'm not going to support it."

MummyOfIsla upthread was of the former view, and maybe you are too; I'm of the latter.

Or perhaps you don't want to fight the link at all, you're not fussed about it, I dunno.

Florafox cheerio. Just off for a cheeky wee gangbang, a line of coke and a swing round my pole. Because that's how I roll.

tracy if that's how you deal with discussion, cheerio then. "Don't knock it till you've tried it" is a fucking stupid statement in the context of any analysis.

Posy that's not what I'm thinking when I use "empowerfulising". For me, I'm usually trying not to make the point that the thing being discussed is not empowering or at least raising the question of where is this power or empowerment.

I noted further up that I can see why Trucks finds it empowering to feel strong. There is power in strength but there is not power in every choice a woman makes. Along these lines:

www.theonion.com/articles/women-now-empowered-by-everything-a-woman-does,1398/

TheDoctrineOfWho how does pole dancing in an exercise context have anything to do with stripping? Because noone at my classes had their breasts out.

Tracy, it's not about why you (or anyone) personally are doing it, it's about what the popularisation of pole dancing classes means in the wider culture - there is a strong link to stripping even if there are also links to gymnastics and dancing. Does it normalise stripping more if pole dancing classes are available for a laugh?

Tracy, surely Red's point was clear that plenty of things can be looked at critically without having to try them.

I revert to my previous example of bullfighting. I can imagine it's exhilarating to watch, the jeopardy of the matador - but I don't intend to ever try it because of the negatives.

That's the last time I post on a feminism thread. I thought feminism was about equality and having the choice to do things without fear of gender-based judgement and assumptions, perhaps I'm wrong there. I'm such a disappointment to woman-kind because I happen to like using a vertical bar to exercise. But then maybe I don't know my own mind, maybe deep down I'm doing it to arouse other men, even though no man has seen me pole dance

*'Don't knock it till you've tried it

Seriously? Does that apply to all activities? Stripping? Prostitution? Gang-bangs? Illegal drugs?'*

What are you on about? Because I was referring to pole dancing. I didn't even read the rest of your post because that statement was so fucking stupid.

Don't knock it till you've tried it . There's something to be said for a work-out that is also fun- it's really motivating. I can't get excited about running aimlessly on a treadmill, but there's something really exhilarating about swinging about like a monkey in time to dance music! Plus the feeling of every muscle being pushed to the limit the next day is reassurance that it is a good workout. To me it was nothing to do with being 'sexy,'- I was learning new moves and new ways to push myself (it's fab for upper body/ core strength) in a room full of women whilst wearing cycling shorts. It never felt to me as an access course to stripping

I think doing it well takes incredible dedication and skills (not to mention strength). I've done a few pole lessons and I am strong woman (I go to the gym regularly to pick up heavy objects and put them back down again), but it's a very particular type of strength endurance and it's tough!

OP that's probably not what you'll get on your night out. It'll probably be harmless in itself, but especially if drinks involved there will probably be more gyrating and less of the stuff that takes practice and / or is inadvisable after a couple of glasses of wine. Why not ask about the class? Does the teacher have a website? If it's a pole fitness class you might love it. If the website is all stripper heels and fluffy pink / red background, it might not be ideal (wouldn't be my thing either).

Incidentally, although this is one of the more balanced reads on this board as a thread, can I say I hate it when the whole 'empowerfulising' thing is trotted out. As a woman, that says to me 'I think the person making this argument is an air headed, bimbo, tool of the patriarchy who cannot spell' Now of course that me be what the poster thinks, but I'm not sure it'll get anyone round to your way of thinking from a feminist perspective.

FWIW, I can see that pole can be problematic, given its origins.

I think its popular because its a damn hard work out, and its fun.